Extra, extra! read all about it
In several posts a little while back (here and here and here), the members of the Cornell Society for a Good Time were concerned to understand something of the intricacies of the dogmatic formula: extra ecclesiam nulla salus. I am pleased to say, to the utter abasement of my pride, that Clara seems to have had the better sense for the dogma all along. Further, Clara will be delighted to know, I'm sure, that it is Dr. Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma which appears to vindicate her position.Of course, I am eager to hear your thoughts about the passages which I present below, all excerpted from the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.
Those things having been said, I think that the issue remains complicated, if only because we need to distinguish between speculative and dogmatic theology, and pastoral or missionary theology in this regard. As with most things about orthodoxy, there is a delicate balancing act which one must maintain between the appropriate evangelical fervor to win souls for Christ and the awareness that membership in the one Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is the Body of Christ (cf. Pius XII's Mystici Corporis), membership in actu, that is, is not absolutely necessary for salvation.
But allow me to present the material before I say more.
(This is, however, a good occasion to say that if you don't have a copy of Denzinger's The Sources of Catholic Dogma, you're simply out the game. Much of the material which is cited by Ott is given in terms of a Denzinger reference number, though I omitted them when I typed it in below. Besides containing every important text for the purposes of dogmatic theology, the other great thing about the currently available edition was that the original Latin version was prepared by Karl Rahner, S.J. and published in 1954. You see, he must have really known Catholic theology before he decided to repudiate it all.) I begin to quote:Among the members of the Church are not to be counted:
a) The unbaptized. . . . The so-called Baptism by blood and Baptism of desire, it is true, replace Sacramental Baptism in so far as the communication of grace is concerned, but do not effect incorporation into the Church, as they do not bestow the sacramental character by which a person becomes attached formally to the Church.
b) Open apostates and heretics. Public heretics, even those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body of the Church, that is to the legal commonwealth of the Church. However, this does not prevent them from belonging spiritually to the Church by their desire to belong to the Church (votum Ecclesiae) and through this, achieving justification and salvation.
c) Schismatics, as well as those who, in good faith, fundamentally reject the Church authority, or who dissociate themselves from the commonwealth of the faithful subject to her. Schismatics in good faith (material) like heretics in good faith, can, by a desire to belong to the Church (votum Ecclesiae), belong spiritually to the Church, and through this achieve justification and salvation. . . .
The Necessity for Membership of the Church
"Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation." (DE FIDE)
In the Caput Firmiter, the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) declared: 'The universal Church of the faithful is one outside of which none is saved' (extra quam nullus omnino salvatur). This was the teaching also of the Union Council of Florence and of Popes Innocent III and Boniface VIII in the Bull 'Unam sanctam', Clement VI, Benedict XIV, Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius XII in the Encyclical 'Mystici Corporis'. As against modern religious indifferentism, Pius IX declared: 'By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it, will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certain it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord'. The last proposition holds out the possibility that people who in point of fact (actu) do not belong to the Church can achieve salvation.
The necessity for belonging to the Church is not merely a necessity of precept (necessitas praecepti), but also a necessity of means (necessitas medii), as the comparison with the Ark, the means of salvation from the biblical flood, plainly shows. The necessity of means is, however, not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In special circumstances, namely, in the case of invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership of the Church can be replaced by the desire (votum) for the same. This need not be expressly (explicite) present, but can also be included in the moral readiness faithfully to fulfil the will of God (votum implicitum). In this manner also those who are in fact outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation.
Christ ordained affiliation to the Church by founding the Church as an institution unto salvation for all men. He endowed the Apostles with His authority, gave them a universal mandate to teach and baptize and made eternal salvation dependent on the acceptance of His teaching and the reception of Baptism. That those who, in innocent ignorance, do not know the true Church of Christ, but who are nevertheless ready to bow to the demands of the Divine Will, will not be cast out, springs from Divine Justice, and from the doctrine of God's general will of salvation, which is clearly proved in the Scriptures. The Apostles teach the necessity of the Church for salvation by promulgating Faith in Christ and His Gospel as a condition for salvation. Peter confesses before the High Council: 'Neither is there salvation in another other'.
It is the unanimous conviction of the Fathers that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. This principle was extended not only to pagans but to heretics and schismatics as well. St. Irenaeus teaches that: 'in the efficacy of the spirit all those have no part, who do not hasten to the Church; rather they, by their evil teaching and their evil deeds, rob themselves of life. For where the Church is, there is also the spirit of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace'. Origen formally declares: 'Outside the Church nobody will be saved' (extra ecclesiam nemo salvatur); similarly St. Cyprian: 'Outside the Church there is no salvation' (salus extra ecclesiam non est). The Fathers, for example, St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Fulgentius, regard, as types of the necessity of the Church for salvation, the saving Ark of Noah and the House of Rahab. In the Primitive Church the conviction of her necessity for salvation found practical expression in her missionary zeal, in the readiness of her children to suffer martyrdom and in her battle against heresy.
In view of the stress laid upon the necessity of membership of the Church for salvation it is understandable that the possibility of salvation for those outside the Church is mentioned only hesitantly. St. Ambrose and St. Augustine admit that catechumens who depart this life before the reception of Baptism can win salvation on the ground of their faith, their desire for Baptism, and their internal conversion. On the other hand, Gennadius of Marseilles denies them this possibility, except in the case of martyrdom. St. Augustine distinguishes also, not indeed using the terminology, between material and formal heretics. Thus he does not regard material heretics as heretics properly so-called. He seems to estimate their possibility of salvation otherwise than he does that of heretics proper.St. Thomas, agreeing with Tradition, teaches the general necessity of the Church for salvation. On the other hand, he concedes that a person may be saved extrasacramentally by baptism of desire and therefore the possibility of salvation without actual membership of the Church by reason of a desire to be a member of the Church.
There ends my quotations from Dr. Ott's book. Whew.
Well, what to make of all that? There seems to be a certain tension in the view: we have the image of the Ark, on the one hand, and, on the other, a loophole which seems to allow anybody and everybody to come scampering aboard. Granted, in this situation, we do not make the judgement, God does, but the whole view would tend to induce a sort of laxity, at least as regards missionary labors: if we ourselves don't go to enlighten the nations-- well, they won't be blamed because they never heard our preaching. Since we have a command to go, we might yet be blamed for not going, but out of charity, you would think that we would hesitate to go, lest lifting a veil of ignorance, we suddenly make the lives of the gentiles more difficult than they were previously. Now they have to go to Confession, hear Mass, avoid sins which they now know to be mortal, etc.
So I think that we should distinguish between the theological possibilities and the moral imperative, as it were, with regard to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. I think that we must behave as though there were no exceptions to that law, simply understood. Indeed, despite the absolute possibility that there may be exceptions, we are guaranteed none; Ott only assures us that it is a possibility. We could imagine cases, but in life, in actuality, we could never safely presume.
And for this reason, I think that Blessed Pius IX's Allocution "Singulari Quadem" is the best and surest guide. Therein, he acknolwedges the absolute possibilities attendant upon invincible ignorance, even as he cautions that we cannot be so arrogant as to say where the boundary of ignorance is fixed. As for our course of action:

"as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, 'for the hand of the Lord is not shortened' and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light. Truths of this sort should be deeply fixed in the minds of the faithful, lest they be corrupted by false doctrines, whose object is to foster an indifference toward religion, which we see spreading widely and growing strong for the destruction of souls."
Again, one may well wonder the import of the fact that so many Fathers and, indeed, the de fide formulation of the statement, extra ecclesiam nulla salus, do not contain escape hatches, like: "...except for in certain very special cases", or, "excepting the cases of invincible ignorance." Why is the matter put so bluntly if there yet remains this important caveat?
And, further, might we not conclude that these "special cases" are few in number, few in the way that few were to be found swimming outside the Ark of Noah? For if these cases were many, why insist upon belonging to the Church? Why, indeed, were so many eager to die rather than admit an heresy in their midst or abandon the "smallest" point of dogmatic doctrine?

These are enough questions for the time being. I await the thoughts of my fellows in the Society.
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St. Louis-Marie de Montfort, ora pro nobis
St. Joseph, ora pro nobis
St. Ambrose of Milan, ora pro nobis
St. Dominic, ora pro nobis
St. Francis (and St. Clare), orate pro nobis
St. Catherine of Siena, ora pro nobis
St. Alphonsus Ligouri, ora pro nobis
St. John Chrysostom, ora pro nobis

22 Comments:
As to the last question (about why people should be willing to die rather than give in on the smallest point to heresy), I should say that this is an entirely different sort of issue. Of course, to knowingly concede heresy out of fear is a betrayal. But this concerns those who don't know about what's wrong with their beliefs.
Why believe in salvation for those who have not heard God's Word? Well, for one thing, you might just be troubled about the question. Something seems very wrong about a world in which a huge number of people are damned without ever having had an opportunity to be helped. There are plenty of people who might be scandalized and turn away from the Church in disgust if they are actually taught that those who never hear of the faith are certainly damned. For myself, too, it throws out of whack my most central ideas of what a loving God is, and what He is capable of, if we are forced to say that there is definitely no salvation for those who have not been taught the Gospel.
We still have sufficient motivation to spread the faith to others. Without the Catholic faith, people have no access to a reliable source of truth, and unless they are Orthodox, they have no Sacraments either. That is obviously a dangerous position to be in. Also, God has commanded us to help spread the Gospel. What better reason do we need? And, it is simply a joyful thought, that we might all sit together around the table of the Lord, as one Church. That is yet another exciting reason to want to lend a hand in bringing new people into the family.
I general, I find questions about salvation and divine justice troubling and difficult. The best remedy to this kind of worry, I find, is trust. God is great and good, and will order all things in the way pleasing to Him. I must follow to the best of my ability his commands, out of love for Him even apart from any other reason. The rest can be left to His providence. Surely it is not unhealthy to want to lay as many of these burdens as possible at the feet of the Almighty, admitting our ignorance?
Anyway, thank you, Iosephus. I enjoyed that, and look forward to see what others may think.
Thank you, Iosephus and Clara, for continuing the thread of this conversation. It is one that I have studied for quite some time. There is indeed a PERCEIVED tension between the necessity of Church membership for salvation and the fate of those who "through no fault of their own" have not been evangelized. In the end, I have found that the most rational and faithfully Catholic position is that which was propounded by Fr. Leonard Feeney in the mid-20th century and which his current followers, the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, continue to this day. This is the position that sacramental baptism, i.e. with water, is necessary for salvation, as is formal membership in the Roman Catholic Church, period. Their arguments, which may be found in the articles I cite at the end of this post, depend upon Scripture, Tradition, the decrees of the Magisterium, and right reason.
Rather than give a full exposition here, allow me to address just two issues -- 1) a conspicuous nonsequitur in the citation from Dr. Ott, 2) the reconciliation of God's salvific Will and the limitations of evangelization (a hefty topic, to be sure).
First, Dr. Ott's citation is garbled. He writes, "Nevertheless equally certain it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord'. The last proposition holds out the possibility that people who in point of fact (actu) do not belong to the Church can achieve salvation."
Blessed Pope Pius IX ruled that people who have "invincible ignorance" are not guilty. I assume he means, "guilty of the sin of explicit rejection of the Gospel." Then Ott concludes that they can be saved in that state. This is a nonsequitur. Because one is innocent of the sin of rejecting the means of salvation does not constitute acceptance of those means. If I miss a class because I am dreadfully ill, and therefore I do not get an A, I am not guilty of failure like the student who skips class or gets an F through not studying. Nevertheless, the teacher does not give me an A by default. Rather, he gives me another opportunity to take the exam. Innocent failure to do X does not mean that I acquire X by default. I still need to take the exam.
Likewise, the faithful Israelites (and, presumably, the righteous Gentiles) of the Old Testament did not know Christ and the Gospel -- at least not explicitly. They certainly were not guilty of their ignorance. Nevertheless, they were detained in the Bosom of Abraham until Our Lord arrived there to set them free -- through explicit knowledge and acceptance of Himself.
One can picture a similar circumstance for the "invincibly ignorant" people of today (I have already voiced my disdain for this term, as no ignorance is "invincible" against the Omnipotent and Omniscient God). These hypothetical people do good deeds, follow the actual graces God gives them, but for whatever reason they never hear of God and Catholicism (one thinks of the Gospel of St. Matthew, ch. 25, where people fulfill the corporal works of mercy in apparent ignorance of Christ). Of course God will find a way to save them, but will He find a way that contradicts the explicit requirement for "water and the Holy Spirit"? When faced with a supposed contrast between the necessity of Church membership and the deaths of (apparently) righteous people (apparently) outside the Church, most theologians have watered down the necessity with distinctions between "in actu" and implicit and explicit desire, etc. This watering down is not necessary at all. We can easily speculate any number of miraculous ways in which God could provide these people with the ordinary means of explicit Church membership (like Baptism) without you or me knowing about it. For instance, they could be placed in Limbo until given the opportunity to receive sacramental Baptism at the General Judgment. Therefore, why should we speculate upon equally miraculous, equally mysterious, exceptional means of salvation that CONTRADICT or vitiate the necessity for Church membership?
Our Lord healed a man and said, "Your sins are forgiven you." When asked, He said somthing like, "Which is easier to say, 'Raise, you are healed,' or 'Your sins are forgiven.'" Likewise, as long as we are positing means of salvation that are unknown to us, why not posit that God can provide water Baptism and explicit Faith too -- it would not be any more difficult for God, and it would not require our theologians to posit "hypothetical necessity-that-yet-really-isn't-necessary."
Good starting-points for this investigation include the following websites:
St. Benedict Center (NH), http://www.catholicism.org, particularly http://www.catholicism.org/eens.html
Tower of David Ministry, c/o Adam Miller, http://www.geocities.com/adam_todm/, particularly http://www.geocities.com/adam_todm/FeeneyFacts.htm, as well as his booklets on the topic of EENS
All Roads Ministry, c/o Vin Lewis, http://www.allroadsministry.com;
I possess any number of audiotapes and booklets by Vin that deal with EENS. His audiotapes on "Baptism of Desire," "No Salvation Outside the Church," and particularly "Limbo" are especially good, and I am willingly to loan out my copies to any takers. Vin's phone number is on his website, and he accepts calls from sincere inquirers (and even some insincere ones . . . but beware!).
Some food for thought!
Tobias Petrus, thank you for your excellent comments. I agree with you that there is a non sequitur of sorts in the passage you point out. I think that it can be illustrated in the following way.
I mean, the relevant point can be brought to light if we consider another sound opinion in dogmatic theology.
It is the unanimous consensus from the early period of the Church, through Thomas' time, that infants who die without baptism cannot enjoy the Beatific Vision. Now when Thomas came along, he and many of the other Schoolmen softened the view which had long been in place, namely that, according to Augustine, those infants who died in original sin suffered also the pains of sense in hell.
In the Summa, Thomas rejects this view of Augustine, but he does state clearly that these infants are deprived of the Beatific Vision. Further, in an excellent, excellent piece of theology, he explains why this deprivation does not bring them great torment, for this deprivation is the greatest torment of the damned, even more than the pain of sense.
Thus we have the Limbo of the infants in which they experience natural happiness, though they are without the Beatific Vision.
My contention is that if anyone, through no fault of his own, and yet without Baptism, can attain justification and salvation, surely the infants who die at that age are the ones who can do this!
And does not Dante capture this view when he puts the righteous pagans in a limbo of sorts? They outside of heaven, but they do not suffer the torments of the damned.
Indeed, we should remember that Pius IX does not go so far as does Ludwig Ott; Pius IX says only that after this life we will understand how close God's justice and mercy really were; here, the relation between the two is obscure to us.
So inspired by Tobias Petrus' remarks, I think that a limbo of the righteous pagans, gentiles or what have you is a view more consonant with the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus so strongly expressed by numerous popes, councils and saints.
This is all extremely interesting. I actually somewhat like Tobias Petrus' suggestion that God might somehow provide opportunities for baptism in the hereafter; I'm not clear on how that would work logistically, but I suppose it would fit in well with the idea of Christ "descending into hell" to free the souls who had not yet had the opportunity to receive him. (Though actually, you know, this is vaguely similar to the Mormon doctrine; they think that everyone absolutely must be baptized, but it's possible to receive baptism by proxy if a living person is baptized *for* you after death. My dear fiance was slightly alarmed when this subject came up a few months ago and I casually mentioned that in adolescence I had been baptized on behalf of dead people perhaps 100-150 times. Anyway, sorry, that's just a tangent.) Sometime after this crazy semester ends, I might take Tobias up on his offer to lend out some literature on this subject.
But regarding Iosephus' suggestion, that limbo might be the right resting place for the upright non-baptized, I am not sure. I did used to joke, back in the day, that I was aiming for "righteous pagan" status, but in reality I find the doctrine slightly repellent. In Dante's depiction, the righteous pagans are not in torment, but neither are they happy; they are aware that they have lost the most truly precious thing. Doesn't it seem terribly sad that Virgil has to turn back at the gates of Paradise because he died just a bit too soon? To me it seems that God would not want anyone to be left out that way. I can accept that those who truly wish to refuse God will finally be given what they want as a ratification of their free choice. But it's much harder to reconcile the notion that some really won't be given a fair opportunity to choose at all. Why would God allow that?
Mind you, I don't pretend to have a perfect understanding of how divine justice should work. As Pius IX warns, God's justice and mercy are surely tightly intertwined, but the exact relation is obscure to us here; therefore I will be content to trust and admit my ignorance. However, we can hardly help but speculate, and in my speculations I do not wish to underestimate God's resourcefulness in leading souls back to Him. My instincts tell me that certain people should be given another opportunity for salvation despite never having been baptized or never having been Catholic. I comfort myself with the assurance that, if granting them such an opportunity is indeed in keeping with the dictates of divine justice and mercy, then it shall be done.
Fine enough, Clara, but I have introduced the doctrine of infants' limbo to force your hand, as it were. :)
How would it fail to be more repellant in the case of infants, unbaptized, when they die and are forever deprived of the most precious thing?
I am saying: if we can maintain this doctrine in the case of unbaptized infants, totally innocent of all personal sin, why cannot we not maintain it for adults who are guilty of ever so many personal sins?
Indeed, I am saying that I cannot see how such adults can be anything but damned, but yet, through ignorance which we do not understand, they may, at least, not suffer the pain of sense in hell. This is the very best that they can do without baptism.
Again, I think that we must strive to find a theological formulation of the matter which justifies the missionary zeal of the Church, from the day of Pentecost until now. Such burning zeal to win souls for Christ! They weren't winning souls for a social club or a friendly society; they were seeking to snatch these souls from the jaws of hell.
If our theological formulations do not reflect their practice, we are clearly ignorant of something which the saints and apostles knew.
Our missionary zeal doesn't reflect theirs because we're lazy. But you don't have to justify it with the assumption that people who are not converted by us will necessarily be damned. I already offered a list of motives in an earlier post for being zealous in conversion: 1) We are commanded to do so, 2) Whatever a person's spiritual state, they cannot but be helped by being brought into the Church, and some surely need the direct assistance that the Church can offer in order to avoid damnation, 3) We should be pleased by the idea of having more members of the Church Militant to help us in our efforts here below. Those are all excellent reasons, I think, and good enough to inspire missionary zeal without postulating that the people we don't manage to get to will automatically be damned.
But on the other point: yes, consistency demands that I allow that unbaptized infants also might be saved and not sent to Limbo. I do so allow. I just thought you would assume as much based on what I've already said. Despite prestigious proponents of the Limbo view, I do find it quite repellent that unbaptized infants should be essentially denied the opportunity to ever choose Christ and attain the Beatific Vision. Dante's sad and somber Limbo for the righteous but unlucky does not seem like a good solution to me. I prefer to believe that these individuals, including the unbaptized innocents, are in some way given another opportunity to be saved.
Again, though, I do not assert this defiantly in the face of St. Thomas. Rather, I offer it humbly as seeming more consistent with my (admittedly very limited) understanding of justice and mercy, and so long as no dogma of the Church prohibits me from doing so, this is the view which I prefer to hold.
Those are all excellent reasons, I think, and good enough to inspire missionary zeal without postulating that the people we don't manage to get to will automatically be damned.
Clara, I must disagree. For sure, yours are all excellent motivations, that ought to inspire any Christian to zeal. But I don't think I can accept the implication that the ancient Christians would have been as zealous with only these for motivation, discarding the constant contemplation of the perilous state of those outside the Church. And, by the way, you seem again to conflate Iosephus' reiteration of a dogma of the Church - that those who are not baptized cannot be saved, with a rigorist view of EENS.
We are extremely lazy in this age, it is certain, but this is not all that degrades our righteous missionary zeal.
"Again, though, I do not assert this defiantly in the face of St. Thomas. Rather, I offer it humbly as seeming more consistent with my (admittedly very limited) understanding of justice and mercy, and so long as no dogma of the Church prohibits me from doing so, this is the view which I prefer to hold."
I understand that you are not compelled by a particular dogmatic statement to adopt the teaching regarding limbo, but surely, Clara, the opinions of St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Gregory Nazianzus count for something? How could we, who have not studied theology nor the Scriptures as they have, fail to defer to their judgment?
Are we able to intuit something which they, in all of their erudition and hours of contemplative prayer, could neither intuit nor expound theologically?
St. Augustine and many Latin Fathers (so says Ott) are of the opinion that children dying in original sin must suffer the pain of sense, even if it be a very mild pain.
Ott goes on: the Greek Fathers and the majority of the Schoolmen and more recent theologians teach that these unbaptized infants suffer only the pain of the damned, that is, the deprivation of the Beatific Vision.
This agrees with the statement of Innocent III who wrote in 1206: "The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell."
Now about your reasons which explain missionary zeal:
(1) We are commanded to do so. Surely, if God commands anything, it is good enough for us. Go and baptize all nations, our Lord said, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And: he who believes and is baptized will be saved.
Does God send us on a fool's errand? Surely, He sends us with good reason: if some person is not baptized, what will become of them?
(2) Whatever a person's spiritual state, they cannot but be helped by being brought into the Church. Indeed! But that's all the more we can say? Rather, have we not always spoken of being brought from death to life? Did Newman become a Catholic, with all the attendant agony, in order to gain some quantitive improvement of his spiritual life?
He finally recognized that he was outside of the Church, and he greatly desired to rectify that situation. How could he say the following:
"Alas! alas! for those who die without fulfilling their mission! who were called to be holy, and lived in sin; who were called to worship Christ, and who plunged into this giddy and unbelieving world; who were called to fight, and who remained idle; who were called to be Catholics, and who did but remain in the religion of their birth!"
if he thought becoming a Catholic were only step ahead on the spiritual road? As though some leave this life with an "A" (the Catholics) and others will leave it with a "B" (the Protestants, Jews and Muslims) and others, perhaps, with a "C-" (the pagans, the Hindus), but we'll all pass the course.
(3) We should be pleased to have more members of the Church Militant to help us in our efforts here below. Again, pleasing, but not something worth sailing to the New World, being tortured for weeks, losing one's fingers, and finally being burned alive.
I'm sorry, Clara, I can see how (1) would justify the martyrs in their agony, but (2) and (3) leave me utterly unmoved and incomprehensible. The martyrs and missionaries went through all that to gain more buddies for the club? I really don't think that's the business they themselves thought that they were about.
James/Jimmy Akin has a great article on this issue that helped me to understand the view of salvation outside the Church held by Vatican II, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI and other representatives of mainstream orthodoxy in the Catholic Church:
The Necessity of Being Catholic
All right, first of all, with regards to Iacobus' comment, it may well be that different views are being conflated in this thread. Awhile back we were discussing whether baptism was required for salvation and what form it might take. Then Iosephus suggested that Limbo might be the best solution for those who are righteous but have not been brought into the Church in their lifetimes. I disagreed, and it does seem to me that, in defending Limbo, he has taken up something like a rigorist interpretation of EENS. (If one thinks that unbaptized innocents are necessarily denied the Beatific Vision, I take it that one's view of EENS is fairly rigorous.) If I have understood any of those points wrongly, I stand open to correction.
I also am not sure what committments Iosephus is taking *me* to have; his last post makes it sound almost as though I were defending universal salvation, which I have certainly not undertaken to do on this thread. (And indeed, I have stated elsewhere on this blog that that position does not seem plausible to me.)
Let me see if I can make it clear what I *am* defending in my response to Iosephus' last post.
Unbaptized infants are in a way a special problem because they cannot have committed any mortal sins yet, but they also cannot have received baptism by desire in this lifetime. (Possibly they could have been baptized by blood, though it isn't clear exactly what the necessary conditions for that are.) Essentially they provide the perfect example of someone who is unbaptized but not at all to blame for that fact. I gather that Iosephus also wishes to maintain that those who reached adulthood but were never taught the truth (ie, the righteous pagans) cannot attain the Beatific Vision, but that claim raises slightly different issues so we'll leave it aside at present.
I maintain hope that such people could be given a chance of salvation in the hereafter. Iosephus' arguments against this position are essentially two:
1) An argument from authority: several weighty saints and doctors of the Church have believed that the unbaptized must go to either Limbo or Hell.
2) An argument that the zeal of Christian martyrs and missionaries could not possibly have been motivated by anything but the rigorist interpretation of EENS that he is defending.
The first of these points I take seriously, and it is largely in light of it that I have advanced my conclusions so tentatively. Disagreeing with the likes of St. Thomas and St. Augustine is not a trivial thing and I generally take it for granted that any view held by such great Christian minds is at least worthy of careful consideration.
However, short of the infallible pronouncement of de fide truth from the Pontiff, the Holy Magisterium or Christ Himself, I take no authority as being *absolutely* compelling. It is worth noting that these noble minds disagreed with each other on many points, so appeal to authority will not be wholly conclusive anyway; there are a number of solid Christian thinkers in more recent centuries who *don't* seem to have believed in Limbo. We must simply reflect on such evidence and arguments as we have and reach the best conclusions we can. I stand open to persuasion by the Doctors of the Church or lesser teachers, but to date my best efforts to tackle this problem suggest that, one way or another, all should be given some opportunity to be saved. I simply cannot imagine why God would allow things to be otherwise. It looks me like a breach of divine justice that some should be denied even a bare opportunity to plead for Christ's mercy and be saved. It looks like a breach of divine mercy for innocent infants to be eternally separated from God's presence. An ideal attempt to persuade me that I am wrong would speak to that point; of course my intuitions about divine justice and mercy may be defective, but if possible you might try showing me how they are defective. I also remember being taught in catechesis that every person is given sufficent grace for salvation, and I don't understand what that means if unbaptized babies cannot be saved.
The second point, regarding the motivations of missionaries and martyrs, does not move me very much. I offered three motives that seem to me good enough to inspire Christian zeal. Iosephus dismisses at least the last two as paltry, but for reasons that seem to me extremely unfair.
I first suggested that, even if formal conversion in this lifetime is not absolutely necessary, it is still greatly expedient to the salvation of souls. Iosephus' scorn here makes it sound as though I were arguing that the missionaries and martyrs weren't really in the business of saving souls at all. But I never said anything of the kind. Consider an analagous case in which a person with a great zeal for healing embarks on a massive project to bring hospitals and good doctors to developing countries where the overall state of health is very poor. We'll assume that his plan stands a good chance of vastly improving the state of medical care in these regions. A friend might say: "Ah, but you know, the people in those countries aren't *entirely* without means to care for themselves. Sometimes they might manage to scrape together the resources to treat some of their own health problems. Doesn't that essentially defeat the purpose of your project?"
Of course this would be ridiculous. A good doctor is not demoralized by the thought that ALL of his patients might not have died horrible and premature deaths but for his ministrations. Likewise, Christians who have labored and suffered for the faith have allowed poor souls to have access to an infallible source of divine truth *and* the amazing graces that come through the Sacraments. Given the precarious position that we mortals tend to be in without such aids, we can be fairly confident that a large number of souls were saved through these efforts. How is that not important enough to inspire action? What kind of servants would we be if, upon receiving the command to evangelize, we responded with, "All right, Lord, but first I want a clean guarantee that the people to whom I minister will be saved and *could not possibly have been saved in any other way!*"?
With regards to the third point, I will only say that if we all felt the degree of joy that we probably ought to feel in seeing souls won back to God, we would probably find this sufficient motivation to give everything in our power for the privilege of seeing it as often as we possibly can. I certainly do not have that much charity, but perhaps the Saints did.
As always, I stand open to correction and further enlightenment on any of the above points.
Clara, I hope that I have never been unfair to you, and certainly not in this discussion. My words have all been spoken with the utmost civility, though that may not come across in print. I greatly respect your intellectual honesty, especially for holding a position in disagreement with the Angelic Doctor and the learned Bishop of Hippo. (They may have disagreed amongst themselves on certain points, but they were agreed that, at the least, unbaptized infants did not see God.)
I wouldn't want to hold Leonard Feeney's position with regard to EENS, especially because he was censured by the Apostolic See for holding it. But if, on the other hand, Clara deigns to honor my position with the title of "fairly rigorist", in this I take pride, having been styled a "hardliner" by others at other times, but only because it is a position which puts me in agreement with Thomas and Augustine.
Indeed, I consider the view I'm advancing to be none other than that of Thomas, and in as much as it is not, I wish to forswear it.
I don't take Clara to be defending universal salvation, but I do take her to be defending a view which would suggest that more are saved than are damned, that the real mystery is how anyone should come to be damned rather than that anyone should be saved.
I think that the correct view is that we are saved by the skin of our teeth; this was how the saints spoke. How many times have I repeated this, but I must again: If the just man is hardly saved, what becomes of the unrighteous? Christ tells us that the road to perdition is broad and MANY there are who find it. His words on this score are sufficient for me.
Let us endeavour to enter by the narrow gate and few, indeed, there are who find it.
Now I maintain, against Clara, that there is no reason, in all of Scripture, Tradition, the Fathers (I'm making a wild claim, I know! who knows if it's true?) that there is any reason to think that our eternal salvation will be sorted out, in some way, even for some of us, after death.
No, death is the end, for each and every one of us. Newman's chilling lines are burned in my mind: "God gives grace and is patient with us, but when death comes, there is no more time either for grace or for patience. Grace is exhausted, patience is exhausted. Nothing remains but judgement, a terrible judgement on those who have lived in disobedience."
What a scandalous thing to say, my good Newman! That the grace and mercy of the loving God are exhausted?! Perish the thought! But it is true, just look at St. Alphonsus' Preparation for Death: it all comes down to our final moment, after which we will not be able to change a thing. Only read dear Alphonsus! this is how everyone used to speak, though no more today. Today, through self-love, we like to believe that there is always another chance, another opportunity, another try. But this is simply false. Death is the end.
Now this is how I would answer Clara about divine justice with regard to those who go to Limbo: we do not deserve heaven. Indeed, by no means do we deserve a chance to plead or beg for anything. The only thing we deserve is hell; this is the heavy burden of our condition.
The beatific vision is purely gratuitous, purely supererogatory, as it were, it is in no way condign with our human nature. Now see what Thomas says: the infants in Limbo will be happy with a natural bliss. In as much as humanly possible, they will be happy. Surely, this happiness will exceed anything which we experience here on earth.
Let a human being become as righteous as he may, yet he still does not deserve to see God in heaven.
It perhaps should additionally be again pointed out that our first parents, more perfectly sinless than any who followed them (save the second Adam and the second Eve!) had no hope whatsoever, in their pre-fallen state, of attaining the beatific vision.
I understand that no one deserves the beatific vision and that it is always supererogatory goodness for anyone who attains it. My issue with divine justice has at heart the notion that if some men are given the opportunity to turn to Christ and sue for mercy, then all men ought to be given this same chance. Otherwise, when we say that Christ died for all sinners, we have to acknowledge that in practical terms, some are left out. But I'm not confident about how equality fits into the divine scheme. The intuition about justice is less strong than the one about mercy: a merciful God would want as many souls as possible to be with Him. So why would anyone be left without even a bare opportunity to be saved?
I have no idea what percentage of souls reach salvation, nor do I necessarily think it will be the majority. Naturally I hope that there will be more rather than less among the elect (and that, please God, I will be among them!) but I don't think it is so difficult to explain why some will be damned: they are damned because they choose to be. Given the manifest potential of our wills to become twisted and depraved, I think it in no way unbelievable that some would choose to reject God. Nor do I think that any of us should rest easy just knowing that the choice will ultimately rest in our own hands. Read The Great Divorce and reflect on whether, if you died tomorrow, you would trust yourself to make that decision.
That is why I say that the righteous pagans are not in quite the same category as the unbaptized innocents. If you want to conclude that entire nations and cultures in history are left without an opportunity for salvation, that is troubling to me, but in individual cases at least you can hypothesize that in some way people did have an opportunity to accept God, which they chose not to take. Baptism of desire, etc., may have been available in some form even to Virgil. (And maybe Virgil had the choice and took it; we don't have to take Dante's word for it that he's left out of Paradise.) The innocents, on the other hand, never had a choice at all. So my explanation of the logic of damnation doesn't seem to cover them. That's the problem.
I may also be slightly influenced by the fact that, in the Divine Comedy, Limbo just doesn't sound that nice. It's certainly better than what you find below, but mostly people just seem to sit around and grieve that they will never be closer to God.
"I may also be slightly influenced by the fact that, in the Divine Comedy, Limbo just doesn't sound that nice. It's certainly better than what you find below, but mostly people just seem to sit around and grieve that they will never be closer to God."
Well leave aside Dante for awhile and read Thomas instead.
Y'all might be interested in a quote from St. Alphonsus in History of Heresies, and their Refutation, concerning the heresy of the Semipelagianism.
They object, fourthly, and say: If even for the beginning of Faith preventing grace is necessary, then the infidels, who do not believe, are excusable, because the Gospel was never preached to them, and they, therefore, never refused to hear it. Jansenius says that these are not excused, but are condemned, without having had any sufficient grace, either proximate or remote, to become converted to the Faith, and that is, he says, in punishment of original sin, which has deprived them of all help. And those theologians, he says, who in general teach that these infidels have sufficient grace for salvation, some way or other have adopted this opinion from the Semipelagians. This sentiment of Jansenius, however, is not in accordance with Scripture, which says that God "will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth"(1 Tim. ii. 4); "He that was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world" (John, i. 9); "Who is the Saviour of all men, especially the faithful" (1 Tim. iv. 10); "And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not of ours only, but also those of the whole world." (John, i. 9); "Who gave himself a redemption for all" (1 Tim. ii. 6). From these texts [St.] Bellarmine remarks, that St. Chrysostom, St. Augustine, and St. Prosper conclude that God never fails to give all men sufficient assistance to work out their salvation, if they desire it. And St. Augustine, especially, and St. Prosper, express this doctrine in several parts of their works. Besides, this sentiment of Jansenius is in direct opposition to the condemnation pronounced by Alexander VIII., in 1690, on that proposition, that Pagans, Jews, &c., have no sufficient grace: "Pagani, Judaei, Haeretici, aliique hujus generis nullum omnino accipiunt a Jesu Christo influxum: adeoque hinc recte inferes, in illis esse voluntatem nudam et inermem, sine omni gratia sufficiente." Neither does it agree with the with the condemnation pronounced by Clement XI on two positions of Quesnel(26,29): "That there are no graces unless by Faith," and that "no grace is granted outside the Church."
Still, we answer the Semipelagians, and say that infidels who arrive at the use of reason, and are not converted to the Faith, cannot be excused, because though they do not receive sufficient proximate grace, still they are not deprived of remote grace, as a means of becoming converted. But what is this remote grace? St. Thomas explains it, when he says, that if any one was brought up in the wilds, or even among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe that God, by an interal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send some one to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius. Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor, God, at least remotely, gives to the infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel co-operates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.
Brilliant. Thank you for typing these passages out. Now we have another idea about how a Doctor of the Church understands the doctrine of sufficient grace for all men; he upholds both this doctrine and EENS, and the latter in a very strict way, a way which you might even call "rigorist." :)
If these pagans follow the natural law, revelation will reach them if the missionaries don't first.
May I direct you to a sermon on the subject given by Msgr Ronald Knox to Oxford undergraduates?
http://ronaldknoxsociety.com/apologetics.html
The sermon is entitled 'The Unconscious Catholic'.
It seems to me that in the quote typed out by Iacobus (thank you!), a lot would depend on what we took "embracing the faith" to consist in, and when we thought it would happen. It seems fairly clear that pagan societies haven't embraced salvation through Jesus Christ in explicit, formal terms, but of couse there might be other ways to effectively do the same thing. So long as we can suitably fill in the description of what would be required for a pagan to "embrace the faith" without having been explicitly taught, I think that would be in harmony with everything I've wanted to say.
But I don't see how that passage clears up the case of infants and Limbo. I read the passage from St. Thomas, which was quite interesting and led me to think about what developmental state infants would be in when they were sent there. You see, on my reading, Thomas does not promise that anyone will be happy in Limbo; he only says that the inhabitants will "suffer no loss whatsoever in other kinds of perfection and goodness which are consequent upon human nature by virtue of its principles." But by Thomas' own definition of happiness, it is only really achieved when the soul reaches its final end, which is union with God. No other end, as the Bishop of Hippo reminds us, will give our souls rest -- and Aquinas reiterates that point by emphasizing that the soul can have no rest at all except in its final end. So it seems to me that Dante's depiction is quite insightful if indeed Limbo exists. Whatever other pleasures or perfections souls in Limbo may have, they will know that they are eternally cut off from their true end. Their spiritual progression will be forever frustrated. That just doesn't sound very nice. But possibly this could be made a bit less bad, if we could speculate that infants are suspended in an earlier stage of development such that they don't really recognize what they have lost. I'm still pretty dubious, but it's the best I can think of.
Thanks to Vicki for the reference, which I will definitely look up when I have a few more spare minutes. From the title, and from what I've already read of Knox, I have a feeling that it would be sympathetic to my way of thinking about things.
"But possibly this could be made a bit less bad, if we could speculate that infants are suspended in an earlier stage of development such that they don't really recognize what they have lost. I'm still pretty dubious, but it's the best I can think of."
You could say this, but Aquinas argues we will all be well-formed adults in the resurrection. We might have touched on this during catechism; I know we talked about the fact that people won't be fat or too thin.
Yes, Clara, Knox is very sympathetic to your point of view. I've known this since I read The Belief of Catholics. And I certainly do disagree with his view.
A friend sent in this quotation (he was too modest to post it himself)
"The greater number of men still say to God: Lord we will not serve Thee; we would rather be slaves of the devil, and condemned to Hell, than be Thy servants. Alas! The greatest number, my Jesus - we may say nearly all - not only do not love Thee, but offend Thee and despise Thee. How many countries there are in which there are scarcely any Catholics, and all the rest either infidels or heretics! And all of them are certainly on the way to being lost."
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE
7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]
9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.
Limbo in limbo?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051130/LIMBO30/TPInternational/?query=limbo
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