A Rebuttal
It is with some trepidation that I approach, for the first time in many months, what might be considered a “woman’s issue.” Last spring I more or less resigned from my informal position as this blog’s women’s issues editor, finding that such topics tended to provoke a small amount of intelligent discussion and a large amount of frenzied, unreasoned (even, dare I say it, unchivalrous!) vitriol poured down upon me personally. In part this is my own fault; I like to use personal anecdotes to illustrate my points, and so naturally readers conclude that my personal life is the main topic of discussion. In this thread, I will avoid making reference to personal experience, and in exchange I will ask our readers please not to take this as an open invitation to chastise me publicly. If you truly feel it your Christian duty to scold or enlighten me about my personal deficiencies, I invite you to send your thoughts to fraternalcorrection@yahoo.com. I may not answer your email, but I’ll see it. In this public forum, please keep your comments civil, and directed to the discussion at hand. Those who disregard this request will find their posts deleted without comment.But, with that disclaimer, I really think some intelligent discussion is needed on the subject of women in universities. Bishop Williamson’s missive on this topic has been recognized by most of our contributors and guests as thoroughly silly, and by troubling to write a respectable reply, I may be giving it too much credit. But at least two among us have in all seriousness declared themselves to be much in sympathy with his “sentiments”, and truly, I do think the Bishop’s words pernicious on several levels. They make a mockery of natural law arguments (one can hardly blame contemporary philosophers for refusing to take teleology seriously, if this is their paradigm!), they encourage husbands and fathers to disregard the genuine spiritual needs of their wives and daughters, and they confuse women by teaching them to identify a natural and wholesome desire as disordered and sinful.
Unfortunately, as is always the case with insidious words, Williamson blends truth with falsehood in such a way as to appeal to his intended audience. It is recognized by many that modernity, in its zealousness to win new opportunities for women through any and all means, has distorted our understanding of the feminine to the detriment of both sexes. Some people, in their eagerness to combat this trend, delight in almost any argument that emphasizes woman’s submissive nature and diminishes her opportunities for participation in the public sphere. I suggest that more careful consideration is needed. Egalitarianism may not be the answer, but recognition of that fact is only the beginning of the conversation, and it is still entirely possible to treat women unjustly and deprive them of opportunities and freedoms that they ought to have. Therefore, I will undertake to detail the philosophical errors of this document, after which I will reflect on some of the more practical advantages and disadvantages of sending girls to universities. Because Bishop Williamson is so sloppy in his argumentation (particularly in his tendency to run together arguments that should be treated separately), some reconstruction may be required on my part in order to render his thoughts intelligible, but I will try to capture his views as accurately as possible.
Turning first to the more directly philosophical questions, it seems that the Bishop is attempting a natural law-type argument, using St. Thomas as his primary source of support. The central claim is that, given their natural orientation towards family and motherhood, it is against a woman’s nature to develop intellectually. It would be difficult to exaggerate the degree to which he thinks this pursuit unsuitable for a girl; indeed, it almost seems as if His Excellency thinks it unnatural for women to think discursively at all. So unsuitable is the mind of woman for abstract thought that he presumes to put the point into neat syllogistic form: “true universities are for ideas, ideas are not for true girls, so true universities are not for true girls.” So different is her mind from a man’s that, “no husband can understand how the mind of his wife works!” Even while listening to her teachers, she is not engaging in critical thought, but rather “learning by osmosis.” And if a woman does succeed in developing her powers of discursive reasoning, she then “will not be properly thinking as a woman. The dilemma is inescapable: she cannot do what is properly men’s thinking or work without cutting across her deepest nature.”
How far do the writings of St. Thomas, on which the Bishop depends, support this view? Well, on my best reading, St. Thomas does appear to think women less suited than men for the pursuit of higher learning. And, though the Angelic Doctor is always deserving of respect and deference, I would venture to say that the nature of women is not one of his strongest subjects. In marking women as inappropriate candidates for ecclesial authority, he can offer scriptural support, but insofar as he awards them a more restricted and passive role in society at large, he seems to be relying on two ideas: first, that women have a limited capacity for acquiring knowledge to an advanced degree, and second, that they are passive agents biologically (or, in other words, that it is the man who provides a child with human form, while the woman provides only the ground in which a baby can take shape.) Both of these are merely asserted without argument (see ST 1a, 92,1). The former claim might be defended, but a wealth of empirical evidence renders it implausible. Though not necessarily precisely equal to men in every field, women have shown themselves capable of serious academic achievement. The latter claim, as embryology has shown, is straightforwardly false.
I think there is room, then, for quibbling with the Angelic Doctor. I suspect Bishop Williamson thinks so too, which is why he deviates from St. Thomas’ argument in order to offer a somewhat different, and much sillier, view which Thomas himself would surely have rejected. St. Thomas merely thought that women were, generally speaking, unable to attain high levels of intellectual development. In light of evidence to the contrary, the Bishop agrees that they are able, but contends instead that it is unfitting for them to do so. Girls who attempt to develop their minds in this way are “distorted” and acting contrary to God’s will. If we fit this into the mold of a natural law argument, it would seem to follow that girls who develop (or even use?) their capacities for discursive thought are sinning.
This conclusion is radically at odds with St. Thomas’ view, according to which discursive reasoning is a deep and integral part of the human mind. It is through reasoning from effects to causes that we gain a basic familiarity with the world and learn how to function within it. Animals have instincts, allowing them to function without any understanding of causes; God himself knows all things simultaneously and thus has no need of discursive reasoning. But between these two levels lies rationality, the form of understanding proper to beings who are not God, but are made in His image. And indeed, St. Thomas takes the intellect to be the very thing that distinguishes us as being, unlike the beasts, in the image and likeness of God. It is through our intellectual acts that we most nearly imitate God’s perfections.
So, if abstraction is incompatible with womanhood, what sort of creature is the woman? Not God, presumably, which means she cannot be above discursive thought. If she is below it, this will put her on a level with the beasts, operating on instinct because they lack the sort of intellect that can reason about causes. If this is the right description of a woman, then she is not made in God’s image. And, being a creature utterly different from a man, it is difficult to see how she can ever be saved by Christ’s redemptive act.
To my mind this conclusion is enough in itself to dismiss the Bishop's essay as offensive and absurd, but for the sake of argument, let’s try approaching his Excellency’s position from another angle. What would lead him to suppose that intellectual activity is, for woman, contrary to the natural law? His argument plays on a supposition of complimentarity of the sexes. He contends that men are disposed to worry about their dealings with the outside world, while women occupy themselves with caring for the family. Now, this basic picture does not seem implausible to me, and it finds echoes in many other places. CS Lewis suggests that, within the family, the woman should be the special advocate of the family’s interests, while the man worries about dealing fairly with others. Men by nature feel it their responsibility to protect the family from danger and support them materially, but it is usually the women who sit up all night with a sick child or a dying grandparent. In contemporary ethics, many philosophers have described this same divide; female philosophers, they say, gravitate towards an “ethics of care” while males are more preoccupied with justice.
More development would be required to establish the point securely, but for the sake of argument I will grant Bishop Williamson’s conjecture that the sexes are naturally disposed towards these different areas of concern. How does this relate back to education? To the Bishop, it is apparently obvious that concern can only be expressed through sheer outbursts of irrational emotion. It isn’t obvious to me. Both Aristotle and St. Thomas would agree that any virtuous person should experience emotions, but regulate them appropriately through the intellect. There is no reason to think that masculine virtue and feminine virtue are different in this regard, even if they are sometimes manifested in different ways. And it is evident in any case that intense concern for the needs of others is not incompatible with a strong intellect. If his Excellency thinks it is, I would ask: which of these characteristics did Our Lord lack?
Perhaps the best thing the Bishop could do for himself at this point would be to remark that, even if a trained intellect is not incompatible with a woman’s nature, it is less necessary for her than it is for a man. Emotions are more obviously needed for a nurturer than they are for a magistrate, who is after all supposed to be as dispassionate as possible. We might suppose also that a higher degree of intellectual training is needed for men, who are more likely to pursue various sorts of careers. This is a more promising avenue, and it might really be possible to argue that, given the different natures of men and women, it is more expedient to educate boys than girls. I do think, though, that both sexes are likely to be improved by a good education. A man, if he does not understand justice properly, is inclined towards the unjust domination of others. But a woman is inclined towards concern of the perverted, malicious sort – gossip, meddling in others’ affairs, and wasting time with such frivolities as fashion or women’s television. These defects are likely to be avoided or lessened by a solid education. The educated and refined woman will learn to occupy her mind with more uplifting things, which may well help her to improve in virtue. She will be less likely to be insipid and petty, and, if her schooling is good, will have learned through it the value of work and of discipline. The effects of her intellectual improvement are also likely to be seen in the sort of upbringing and education she gives to her children. As Newman argued so eloquently, a proper education allows the human mind to grasp the truth more perfectly, which cannot but be an advantage for any human creature.
In any case, the most important point is that Bishop Williamson has departed radically from St. Thomas’ position. Thomas appears to think that women are somewhat deficient in their capacity for wisdom, but he never suggests that it is improper for them to develop the intellect so far as they are able. If, as the Bishop himself seems to think, many of them are well able, then it is entirely reasonable for such women to be educated.
It would take too long to answer every one of the Bishop’s points with appropriate detail, but I think some can be dismissed as peripheral. He argues that women are not suitable authority figures. There is some basis for this claim, but in the first place, St. Thomas’ arguments on this point prohibit women only from holding positions of ecclesial authority, and in the second place, the need to produce future leaders is only one of the purposes of education. His Excellency complains that most modern universities are in a state of moral decay, which is a justified concern, but not obviously relevant to the question of whether women specifically should be educated. Also, he speculates that the distraction caused by having girls present in the university will detract from the boys’ education. It seems to me that, in a properly regulated university, men and women should be able to study together without being overwhelmed by the distractions of the opposite sex. It is neither possible nor desirable to separate the sexes entirely at this age, and boys and girls do need forums in which they can meet one another and learn to behave appropriately with members of the opposite sex. However, even if the Bishop is right about the need for separation, the logical conclusion would be that Catholics should found more respectable single-sex schools. There is no reason why the girls shouldn’t have their own universities just as the boys do.
Finally, the Bishop argues that educated women are likely to be prideful. Every worthwhile human achievement carries with it a temptation to pride, and indeed it is probably advisable for highly educated women to seek husbands among the more educated men. But given a properly educated husband, a refined woman is no more likely to fall prey to pride than one who is beautiful, or blessed with a lovely singing voice, or the mother of unusually attractive or talented children. And, for an educated man, an educated wife seems a most fitting companion. If she is not clever enough to understand him and converse with him, the time they spend together is likely to be dull, and he will suffer the hardship of going through life (to quote a novel that the Bishop *has* approved as reading material for girls) unable to respect his partner.
Before I conclude, let us set aside for a moment the crazed ramblings of a ridiculous bishop and consider more practical questions. Education is time-consuming, and it is expensive. Women often delay marriage and family life in order to pursue degrees, and in this country, tremendous resources are devoted to higher education. There will often be a conflict between a woman’s educational plans and her family plans, and in the end all parents must value their children’s welfare above their own. In short, educational plans should not be our highest priority in life.
But surely this is not sufficient reason to ban women from higher education altogether! Tobias Petrus has suggested on another thread that women ought to marry and start having children as soon as they are physically and emotionally able, at around age 20. I give my blessing to any 20-year-olds who wish to follow this course, but I don’t really see why it’s necessary for everyone. Education should not be allowed to take the place of motherhood, which does often happen in our society. But if we could persuade people to stop using contraceptives, I think this problem would be adequately solved. The people who are denigrating women’s education seem also to think that married people ought to be having children in very rapid succession. Well, a 20-year-old who follows all of your advice is likely to end up with perhaps 12 or 15 children. Good for her if she can handle it, but is that really necessary? She could finish college, marry, and have plenty of time left for 10. Even if she gets a graduate degree of some kind, she still might easily manage 6 or 8.
People who argue that women were born primarily to be baby-makers should stop and reflect that advances in medical science have drastically changed the fortunes of women. In eras of history in which few people lived past 50, when women frequently died in childbirth and children in infancy, the propagation of the human race did indeed require that women devote most of their lives to the task of creating and raising new people. These days, most women survive childbirth and most babies successfully reach adulthood. And people quite often live to be 80 or 90 years old. So a woman doesn’t need to bear 10 children, just in hope of seeing 3 or 4 of those have families of their own. And even if she does have 10, she’s unlikely to spend more than about 30 or 35 of her 80-plus years raising the little ones. What is she to do with the rest of her life? Youth will be sweeter and old age easier to bear if she is taught to exercise her mind with serious and uplifting intellectual nourishment.
Formal education is not the most important thing in life. Often women do need to stop and consider whether their educational or professional plans are really selfish, and whether their priorities need to be reordered. Still, the desire to learn is a healthy thing, and when legitimate interests must be given up for the sake of family, this should be acknowledged as a serious sacrifice. Rather than scolding a woman for having fostered unfeminine desires, as Bishop Williamson seems wont to do, caring husbands or parents ought to do what they can to lessen the loss, by encouraging other outlets for learning (book groups, weekly classes, stimulating hobbies), and by supporting women who decide to go back to school or pursue a late career after their children are grown. And actually, they can help a lot just by acknowledging and respecting a sacrifice for what it is. It is hurtful and humiliating to give up something valuable for another’s sake, only to have the beneficiary belittle the loss. Having a husband who understands and appreciates his wife’s sacrifices could make a world of difference to many women out there. That sort of appreciation would go much further towards reestablishing domestic harmony than clownish tracts that, if taken seriously, would call into question whether women can even be properly classified as human beings. And so, for anyone who believes that women are rational creatures made in God’s image, it would be better if absurd figures like Bishop Williamson were either forgotten, or ridiculed to the point where they can no longer do any damage.
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St. Louis-Marie de Montfort, ora pro nobis
St. Joseph, ora pro nobis
St. Ambrose of Milan, ora pro nobis
St. Dominic, ora pro nobis
St. Francis (and St. Clare), orate pro nobis
St. Catherine of Siena, ora pro nobis
St. Alphonsus Ligouri, ora pro nobis
St. John Chrysostom, ora pro nobis

118 Comments:
The first half of your rebuttal I thought was very good and I think the Society should send it to the Bishop for a response.
I would leave out the 2nd half, however, as you start a disgusting naturalist digression into planning out the # of children to have.
"15 or 12" versus "8 or 6" what's the difference? And the "8 or 6" give you an opportunity for a fuller life.
Well, child number 15 or 12 would probably disagree with you.
We're talking immortal souls here.
Men make sacrifices for living in a traditional Catholic lifestyle too. You are obessesed with the sacrifices of women. As if a large family, is the sole burden of women.
Well, I second Joe Six Pack's comments about the end, but you know my opinions on that. And did you really sign up for fraternalcorrection@yahoo.com?
I am quite impressed that you tried to extract all of Williamson's various arguments, even the ones that were so silly and mean he didn't devote more than a single sentence to them. Well done!
However, being one of these crazy anti-woman people, and someone who has argued with you about this before, albeit jokingly, I'll throw in my opinions. I think that you misread the Bishop, or rather, someone saner who might be arguing his case, by saying that he is against all intellectual development in the ladies. How could anyone, looking at the great history of thinking women in the Church understand this to be compatible with our faith? Then again, historically, that might just mean intellectual development for female religious. And maybe, after all, he is a just a really stupid old man - I'm certainly not excluding that.
Moreover, you seem to be of the opinion that the university is the only kind of education worth anything these days. Interestingly, I think the Bishop argues from a completely contrary vision of the university, as an elite place of learning for very few people. Of course, his vision has little relation to reality today, but as always with Williamson, he wants to hurl himself backward through time, to the last cultural outpost that makes him feel comfortable. This, I think, was where we came to agree in our last discussion: that we must look at the nature of the University today, and decide if that is compatible with woman's nature.
I think many people, like myself, have these dreaded "sentiments" about this sort of thing, because we recognize how modern girls going to university is. When something is here now, and wasn't - say, eighty years ago - a Christian needs to seriously consider whether these cultural changes are positive and whether they agree with our Faith. When they are such obvious products of gross egalitarianism, I'm not so inclined to sign off quickly on them. There are, as you say, many opportunities for women that grow out of this college thing, that are good and proper and wholesome. But we can also see how even the better parts of feminism have damaged modern man's understanding of the distinction in the natures of man and woman. I doubt there is any other way to tease them apart, the good from the bad, in dealing with education - except more education on the subject! But those textbooks have yet to be written, and Mulieris Dignitatem ain't gonna help.
The role of women can be seen reflecting on he scriptures and by reading the phenomenogist ,Alice Von Hildebrand,or the Thomist-psychiatrist,Karl Stern,or bishop Fulton Sheen.Magisterially read Mulieris Dignitatem,or the allocutions of Pius XII.In 1956 Pope Pius XII gave an adress to the Federation Of Italian Women,an organization that was founded to defend the rights and dignity of women and promoted their education.The Holy Father supported them end decried the efforts to derail the advancement of women.He told them that they should be "a dynamic center of thought and action which is determined to assist and defend the real value of women by establishing her rights as well as her duties." He also condemned and said the church had condemned "from her very beginning" the notion that women were in any way inferior to men.
Clara, very well thought out and excellently expressed, overall.
One small point where I might disagree:
"His Excellency complains that most modern universities are in a state of moral decay, which is a justified concern, but not obviously relevant to the question of whether women specifically should be educated."
I would give the Bishop the benefit of the doubt here, and hope that he is being chivalrous and thinking that with women being the gentler sex, it is most desirable that they, more so than men, should be protected from exposure to moral decay....In that sense, it would be relevant whether their education in a university is worth pursuing, right?
Sacerdos,
Thank you for that remark! That is most interesting, and I probably ought to read more about it.
RP,
Your interpretation of the Bishop's remarks is more charitable, and I agree of course that it is prudent to consider the wholesomeness of a university environment before deciding to send a girl there. Still, even if we conclude that *all* available schools are so depraved as to be unsuitable for girls (which I don't believe to be the case) the best we could get from this is that schools ought to be improved before girls are sent there. And obviously Bishop Williamson wishes to say something stronger than this.
Joe Six Pack,
I am so gratified by your praise of the first part of the essay that I barely mind your classifying the final paragraphs as "disgusting." Thank you. Regarding the number of children, this hearkens back to our dispute about whether or not laypeople are obliged to have as many children as physically possible. I find it funny that you dismiss "the opportunity for a fuller life" as a trivial consideration (and remember, I think education can help a woman to enrich the lives of her husband and children as well as her own). But then, I've always found your view, in which laypeople must subordinate all other possible goods to the goal of maximizing their breeding, strange and repellant, and I don't know where the Church has ever promoted it. We've been down that road before, and we need not rehash the argument now. I'll just agree that, if women are obliged to bear as many children as they are physically able, then no, there won't be much time for college. Please try to compensate your daughters (of which there will no doubt be many) by at least giving them the as good a secondary education as possible, and your wife by allowing her to go back to school after the kids are grown, if she wishes to do so.
You complain that I harp on the sacrifices of mothers without giving fathers due credit. I absolutely agree that fathers as well as mothers make many sacrifices for their families. A man who endures material hardships, who gives up favorite pastimes or who works long hours at an unpleasant job, for the sake of family, deserves to be honored and appreciated for this by his wife, his children, and his community. The reason I don't dwell on this subject is that it isn't controversial. Within a Traditionalist community, a man who (for example) leaves a career he loves and works a hard and unpleasant job to support his wife and children, will certainly be respected for by his community and family for what all acknowledge to be a sacrifice.
I wish the same could be said about the woman who gives up an education or a career for her family, but among Traditionalists, that rarely seems to be the case. Instead, her fellow Traditionalists are liable to frown on her even for wanting the advanced education or the interesting career, attributing her ambitions to a mind infected by feminism, careerism, modernism... anything but an actual desire to learn. I think the Bishop's tract is only a rather extreme example of the sorts of arguments that appeal to many Traditionalists. It isn't enough to declare women's education to be (in some cases) practically difficult. No, they want to say that it is actually disordered, and that it is more proper for a girl, not to sacrifice a university education, but to shun it. I have several times heard Traditionalists announce with obvious pride that the family's mother or daughters never had any educational or professional ambitions. One is almost reminded of The Great Gatsby, in which Daisy announces that she is raising her daughter to be exactly what a girl ought to be: "a silly little fool."
I think Iacobus captures the reason for this quite nicely in his comment. Traditionalism is reactionary, and since the advancement of women has been a key goal of the modernist's egalitarian agenda, the natural kneejerk reaction is to teach young women that it's more virtuous for them *not* to go to school. But this is a bad mistake. A proper education really can help to instill virtue, and we ought to be interested, not in contradicting every word that comes out of the modernist's mouth, but rather in showing that Traditional Catholicism offers a fuller, richer and more complete understanding of the meaning of life. It is good for a girl to hold motherhood as her highest ambition, but she should also aspire to improve her mind as far as opportunity allows, and I think that point tends to get lost among Traditionalists.
To be educated is a wonderful thing. To be forced to forego a good education for the sake of family is a hardship, but it can also be a wonderful thing; as Christians we know that sacrifice can be a blessing. But to be told that you are not the sort of creature who is even fit to be educated is a grave insult, and an attack on human nature itself, as I have already argued. And this is why I am so regularly urging Traditionalists to abandon garbage like Bishop Williamson's essay, and instead start talking more about noble sacrifices in connection with women's education.
But, Joe Six Pack, if there are particular fatherly sacrifices that you think are being underappreciated by Traditionalists or the general public, then by all means, make your case and give us all the opportunity to better ourselves!
Iacobus,
Yes, I really did register fraternalcorrection@yahoo.com. I was pleased to find it still available; maybe I can use it again in future posts!
I think there's no getting around that Bishop Williamson does come out swinging against all advanced learning for women. Reread the quotes I pulled to that effect in my original post; he clearly wants to say that intellectual development is *contrary to women's nature*. Of course, you long ago agreed to his being more than a little loopy, so no shame to you. But as my last post to JSP explains, I think Traditionalists are often attracted by these goofy quasi-natural law arguments, which is largely why I took the time to post about them.
I don't actually think women's colleges were unheard-of 80 years ago. They have existed in the United States since before the Civil War. I agree that education doesn't all have to be formal, but building universities does seem an overall good way to go about educating people en masse. And, in our present time, outside organizations aimed at stimulating non-working women seem to have grown pretty few and far between. So a girl whose parents refuse to send her to school most likely just won't get much of an education. But insofar as there are steps we can take to rebuild that sort of thing, then absolutely, I'm all for it!
I only have one daughter presently. It's amazing how early on she was focused on growing up to be a mother (and we make a concerted effort to promote the religious life to our kids). She's very bright and I certainly will encourage and assist some sort of continued education. I want her to make the best decision on a husband, not some act of desperation at 18 years of age.
Professions such as Nursing and Primary Education are well-suited for women and I think I'd encourage degrees in those fields. I must say, however, that she seems to naturally be self-selecting a traditional life of motherhood without any brow beating from me. Just being raised as a little lady in a family that attends the TLM, homeschools, hangs out socially with a mixed groups (but primarily mostly other trad families and some conservative Novus Ordonarians), I don't think there's going to be some sort of big confrontation about her wanting to be a engineer or rodeo clown or astronaut.
I'm sure she's a delightful child! Still, she is six years old, yes? So it's probably a bit soon to be making confident predictions about what she'll want when she's 15 or 18. But I'm glad you plan to take pains to educate her well, and I agree that this will probably help her in choosing a good husband. Spending a few years in Turkey should also be an interesting experience for her.
Sacerdos15,
The general maxim of the Church has always been 'equal in dignity different in vocation' This gets to the heart of natural law. Men and women share in the dignity of 'children of God' as well as the gift of rationality that separates us from the irrational animals. The primary component to any society is the family, not the individual, as such the state and the Church must always defend the family and the vocational roles that belong to it above all else. This is the Summum bonum. By preserving the family and recognizing it as the summum bonum, one is securing the most integral rights (vocations) of both male and female. Beyond this is superaddition. The problem today is the division of the State and the Church, a disunity which disunifies the family from wholism to narcissistic individualism. The current construct of the world smears the foundation upon which the world is ultimately constructed. Presently, we are atop a scaffold that is supported by artificial technology. If that scaffold were to collapse, where would we be then? The realm of natural law--our original state. Do not misconstrue what I am saying, I am not opposed to tech but the rise of 'women's rights', a flower from Marx's garden, is corelative to the industrial revolution and modernity as we now know it. If the the family is the basic building block of society, the state must do all that it can to ensure the wellbeing of this foundational block. The church would laud such a state as this. But, what good is it when two choices are given, one for the good, one for ill, and both male and female can vote and if the male votes for the proposition that is good and all that goes along with it and then his wife, in the anonymity of the voting both chooses the the proposition for the ill and all that goes along with it---would it not have been a greater good that she was never allowed to vote now that she has nullified her husbands vote, a vote that was for the greater good? In this situation the state should allow only one vote for a married couple, which would not guarantee a vote for the greater good but would be shift ensure the vocational right of the father to lead and guide his family. Pius XII was not talking about this because Pius XII's duty is to protect the deposit of the faith and to be the guarantor of the natural law. Any right granted by a state, whether to a male or female, that usurps the natural law or the authority of the Church, should be suppressed by that state if it seeks to champion the summum bonum. Humm, I don't see any on the planet currently, that is odd, why doesn't Peter speak out instead of conciliating with the phantasm of the charitable objector?
"But, what good is it when two choices are given, one for the good, one for ill, and both male and female can vote and if the male votes for the proposition that is good and all that goes along with it and then his wife, in the anonymity of the voting both chooses the the proposition for the ill and all that goes along with it---would it not have been a greater good that she was never allowed to vote now that she has nullified her husbands vote, a vote that was for the greater good?"
I think this statement is, strictly speaking, true, but it is highly contestable whether the antecedent to the conditional often obtains.
Or rather, the answer to the rhetorical question is "yes"... but again, I am dubious about the antecedent.
Clara, you did not quote what I said in the entire context. Please do so if you want to have the discussion
Clara, I would like to thank you sincerely for this rebuttal to the "silly" bishop.
Interestingly enough, there are currently more women in American colleges than men AND not only that but with the exception of the fields of engineering, women do better than men academically.
What some men who share the sentiments of the bishop fail to realise is that the solid education of women is absolutely pertinant to the education of the next generation, not so much in academic terms but most especially morally. I would argue that often it is the mother who is the main teacher and person who raises the child. My own mother (as is usually the case that mothers do the homeschooling) was the one to homeschool me for several years while my father was at work during the day.
Also, we must only look at the cultures in which the education of women is supressed or not emphasised. Look at the countries in the middle east where women are forbidden to learn even the most basic things like to read and to write. If these men had a strong, educated mother to raise them when they were young they would perhaps not be the haters and lovers of death that they are today because their mother would have been free enough, and knowledgeable enough to have an influence on them with that certain emotional sanity that woman can often bring to men, who, quite frankly can be machine-like beasts at times without womanly influence in the society(an influence that includes the academic realm).
In fact I would go one further and bet that if you look at the improvement of any backwards country, the improvement usually co-insides with, or is at least a part of, the increased intellectual freedom of the women of that society.
Also, one last note. I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of a book in the mail that I ordered recently. As a psychology student in a seemingly God-less secular university (you folks do know how lucky you got it to be surrounded by such like-minded people all the time) I have searched high and low for some sort of sanity to the modern field of psychology (no pun intended). I recently came across a biography of Edith Stein and read it only to learn that she was a psychology student at one point and had written a "Philosophy of Psychology and the Humanities," and "On the Problem of Empathy." I hope I am not disappointed by these books as I have not yet read them, but somehow I doubt that any man could have contributed, at least in the same way, to the subject matter as the way a woman, Edith Stein, did.
The fact is that not only does the education of women benefit women, their husbands and children and society as a whole, but woman, having different natures than men, have much to contribute to the academic realm.
Lucy writes: "Also, we must only look at the cultures in which the education of women is supressed or not emphasised. Look at the countries in the middle east where women are forbidden to learn even the most basic things like to read and to write. If these men had a strong, educated mother to raise them when they were young they would perhaps not be the haters and lovers of death that they are today because their mother would have been free enough, and knowledgeable enough to have an influence on them with that certain emotional sanity that woman can often bring to men, who, quite frankly can be machine-like beasts at times without womanly influence in the society(an influence that includes the academic realm)."
This is just silliness.
Given your theory then where women are the most educated, say Sweden or Holland, charity, love and virtue should flow from just about every male heart.
Please.
The Mohammedans may be hateful violent people to some degree.
But, would you say that hearts of the modern Western man is not also cold and lovers of hate and death?
Abortion, euthanasia, pornography,,, these things are trillion dollar industries in the well-educated Western World,,, not in the Islamic world.
There is no shortage of “machine-like” beastliness in the well-educated Western world. To suggest otherwise is silly.
Interesting, I just had Hep-A shots administered to my family here in Turkey. We waited until we arrived in Turkey to receive the Hep-A shots, rather than getting them in the USA. Why? Well, you see in the well-educated USA, where women so proudly dominate the populations of the universities, the FDA approved Hep-A (along with many other vaccines) vaccine is created through cell lines derived from a baby aborted about 30 years ago.
www.cogforlife.org
Not so in Turkey.
And to suggest that one needs a college degree to homeschool is also ridiculous,, at least on two counts.
1) if the quality of the high school education is good enough, and the mother has a strong desire to teach her children, she will succeed. whatever she subject-areas she may lack expertise in can be supplemented through a myriad of sources, including local community colleges or friends and family.
2) The great majority of the students at most mainline, public higher education institutions are idiots. I just spent three years teaching Army ROTC at colleges all around the Kansas City area. In order to qualify to be in officer-candidate for the US Army, one has to be able to read, write, and do math at least at the 8th grade level. At least 50% of our cadets could not meet this standard. We (the US Army) have to provide separate web-based education in English and Math, just to get them up to par. And these are students who are set to easily march across the graduation stage at their so-called "universities".
I tire of your worshippers of the modern Academia. What a joke.
I thought Anonymous's post was most enlightening. And, Clara I think it deserves a more lengthy response from you. Despite all the good things that you mention in your original article, you must address that the higher-education of the woman as being a central plank in the Marxist/Freemason platform?
Evil things can have a lot of good about them. The educating of women may be full of goodness in many regards, yet still be part of an evil master plan to rebuild society not in accord to God's plan.
The Catholic guild system which freemasonry destroyed is also an example of something that from the outside seems like an injustice (just like restricting women from universities) to our modern western minds. In a traditional Catholic society, one must belong to the trade guild in order to be able to work. And, in order to join the guild one must be Catholic. Along with this society was broken up and non-Catholics are separated from the rest of the population into their own enclaves. Certainly, just like when we hear a bishop rail against women at universities, most of us recoil in horror at this. Well the freemasons and marxists have done a good job programming us. Protecting the Catholic social order, allowing families to grow and flourish, and preserving virtue in society, were the paramount concerns of the traditional social laws. Not "FAIRNESS" or any other of our masonic values.
Please respond to Anon's specifics.
I cannot believe what innanity I am hearing from Lucy. "I would argue that often it is the mother who is the main teacher and person who raises the child. My own mother (as is usually the case that mothers do the homeschooling) was the one to homeschool me for several years while my father was at work during the day."
In case you need a refresher about the apostolic faith of our fathers here you go:
Should the mother or the father be responsible for teaching children their catechism?
The very formulation of the question presupposes a false dichotomy, since both are responsible. Yet, both are not responsible equally and in the same way.
Since the father is the head of the family, he has the responsibility for planning, and foresight is his prerogative and duty. His is the responsibility to look to the future, and to plan out the religious formation of his children, just as it is his duty to lead the family in prayer and other religious activities. He has no right to opt out of all involvement, on the grounds that he is not home long enough, but must act towards his family as Christ, who is the invisible head of the mystical body, the Catholic Church. His paternal prudence requires that he determine how and when his children’s religious education is to take place, even if he is not able to do it himself.
Ed Willock had this to say a half century ago:
"Few fathers realize their own dignity as fathers, and few see the unique role that the Church insists that they plan in this work of revolutionary change (i.e. the formation of character in children). He should recognize that the American tradition of the last quarter century, which assigns to him the role of eternal adolescence, is a belittlement of his vocation. He is the bridge between Church and State. He is the bridge between state and family. He is the bridge between family and Church." (In Fatherhood and Family, Angelus Press, p. 81).
However, the mother is the one who is responsible for the daily implementation of her husband’s foresight. She is the one who will teach them the holy names of Jesus and Mary in her knees, and who will repeatedly go over their catechism questions with them by heart.
Nevertheless, as the children grow older the father’s role in the actual teaching of the Faith ought to increase, inasmuch as it is possible. It is he who ought to lead family discussions defending the great teachings on the Faith, and who must instruct his children on how to defend their Faith out in the world, and how also to defend the Church. By so doing, his authority and leadership will make the learning and expression of the Faith a profound reality in the lives of his children, instead of a superficial veneer.
Also the Catechism of the Council of Trent:
The Duties of Married People
The more easily to preserve the holy state (of marriage) from dissensions, the duties of husband and wife as inculcated by St. Paul and by the Prince of the Apostles must be explained.
Duties Of A Husband
It is the duty of the husband to treat his wife generously and honourably. It should not be forgotten that Eve was called by Adam his companion. The woman, he says, whom thou gavest me as a companion. Hence it was, according to the opinion of some of the holy Fathers, that she was formed not from the feet but from the side of man; as, on the other hand, she was not formed from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband.
The husband should also be constantly occupied in some honest pursuit with a view to provide necessaries for the support of his family and to avoid idleness, the root of almost every vice.
He is also to keep all his family in order, to correct their morals, and see that they faithfully discharge their duties.
Duties Of A Wife
On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.
To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband's consent.
Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.
It seems that our female folk are quite malleable to modernity. I am not a misogynist but we can talk all day long about how we 'feel' and the like but what we cannot disent from is that fact that there are clear vocational roles latent in our nature. We cannot become lost in the current state of 'becoming' or 'flux' wherein we deny that there are 'truths' or 'absolutes.' Perhaps the maxim Lucy needs to retain is 'Plurality of witness does not equal truth.' Just because there are more females in college and this is happening and that is happening etc, does not mean it is a just social order or consonant with natural law. Make your choice--are you in the civitas hominis or the civitas Dei? As far as your books are concerned, I would lay those aside and pick up Fr. Ripperger's book "Introduction to the Science of Mental Health. Vol 1: Philosophical Psychology"
I seem to be getting called out in these last posts. But you'll have to pardon my womanly frailty, because I'm not really seeing any arguments to answer, just a series of disjointed impressions and assertions.
Joe Six Pack charged me to answer Anon's point about Masons and Marxists having long been supporters of women's education. So I answer: what's that got to do with anything? I have advanced arguments for educating women that have nothing to do with either Masonry or Marxism, and it shouldn't matter a bit whether the people involved with those movements agree with what I say or not. To suppose otherwise would be similar to arguing that abortion must be okay because the Muslims think it's not.
You aren't satisfied with the intellectual caliber of your ROTC students. Sorry! But you know, there aren't any very good universities in the Kansas City area. That doesn't mean there aren't any anywhere. And, at any school but especially a mediocre one, there will be some students who really don't want to learn. That doesn't mean the university isn't rich with resources for those who do. The higher you get in education, the more schools focus on enabling you to learn instead of forcing you to learn. I can't help it if your ROTC students were lazy.
Modern academia can be criticized in all sorts of ways, but it's just foolish to imply that nothing useful is learned in universities, and likewise absurd to suppose that a college education won't be an asset to a homeschooling mother. Of course, everybody does the best they can with what they've got, but knowing more will obviously help if a woman is supposed to teach every subject for a child's entire primary education. Remember that in college you get lots of choice in what sorts of courses you take. So she can select a course of study likely to be valuable for both herself and her offspring, for example, by learning classical languages so that her children can grow up loving the language of the Church (it will be quite difficult to tutor your little ones in a language you don't yourself know, or to find Greek and Latin classes at a local community college), or by learning about great literature so that she can bring the canon alive for them, or by learning music so that she can train them to sing or play instruments. Or, of course, she might study the Church Fathers so that she can increase her children's understanding of the faith. College also generally improves one's facility in writing, making it easier for her to train her little ones in grammar, syntax, and spelling. Bloggers the world over will be appreciative.
The bottom line is that, if most Traditionalist children are educated by people who never went to college, there will be severe limitations on the educational possibilities for both boys and girls. That is especially disturbing since, as already argued, good intellectual training can be an important part of good moral formation.
Anon, so far as I can see, nothing in your selection from the Catechism of the Council of Trent has any relevance to women's education. The only portion that might possibly apply is the mention of a mother's duty to train her children in the virtues, which will arguably be easier for her to do if she has herself been educated. Educating women seems to me entirely in conformity with the teachings of the Council of Trent.
Your assertion that women are more "malleable to modernity" than men is completely unsubstantiated (both sexes, in my experience, have been quite malleable), and your assertion about there being objective truths is also unhelpful. Everyone here already agrees that there are objective truths, and if you read my post you'll notice that I also agree to the sexes having naturally different but complimentary roles. I just think that a woman will fulfill her duties better, as well as leading a generally better life, if she has been educated.
By the way, excuse my ignorance, but who is Ed Willock?
Lucy,
I'm glad you enjoyed the post! But I laughed when I read the part about the good fortune of being "surrounded by like-minded people all the time." One of the funny effects of this blog is that it seems to suggest to people that Cornell is a place where traditional Catholicism is a major influence, and is blooming and flourishing. This is very far from true! What you see here are all the tradition-sympathetic Catholics we could round up among thousands of graduate students. And a majority of the contributors aren't even at Cornell anymore. Among the others in my department there are a few Protestants, a few Jews, and a lot of atheists. Not always comfortable, though it does give you some practice in articulating and defending principles of the faith.
Was the biography you read Alasdair MacIntyre's most recent book? I've been wanting to read that one, too; I'm a big fan of MacIntyre.
Clara,
My comments about the sad state of higher education had to do with Lucy's breathless endorsement of higher education being a panacea for so many social ills.
From atop your ivory tower at Cornell you may think all is fine in the world of Academe, but where's the hard evidence that the massive enrollments of people into higher education over the last few generations has done any social good at all?
Since all social indicators began to plummet at the same time as the percentage of our population began to attend higher education at greater and greater rates, I think you'll have a hard time making a case.
These comments had nothing to do with your argument for whether or not girls should attend college in the abstract.
I can't believe that even you don't find Lucy's comments silly.
As if attending university softens our coarse culture. Hah!
Yes, young girls funneling kegs of beer and becoming the sexual targets of countless men has done so much for our culture.
Liberation! How wonderful it is!
Why don't you take your doctorate and go teach at a major public school and see for yourself.
Try raising the minds and hearts of the young girls in your class, while they text-message their current boyfriend, scheduling their next appointment with the local planned parenthood mill, and then day dream out the window.
Your analogy with the Muslims and abortion doesn't cut it.
Perhaps Anon could spell out more explicitly Masonry's plan to destroy the family and how sending women to college is part of that.
I'm not getting into the question of whether increasing education on a large scale helps with social ills. There are just too many facets to a question like that, and you're not going to get them all sorted out on a blog. Lucy's suggestion was speculative, and I decided to leave it at that.
But obviously a secular education will not by itself turn everybody into saints. I've only addressed whether and why it's useful and worthwhile in conjunction with a religious upbringing.
Modern academia has lots of problems; I've agreed to this several times. I'm setting it aside as somewhat peripheral to the case, however, because we can't diagnose them all in one blog thread, and the best moral to take is that one should be a little choosy about where one attends school and what one studies there. If a field is in a sad and shabby state where you study nothing but, for example, feminism and postmodernism, don't choose that as a major.
I never said that mothers without any college will make "terrible" teachers. That's your distortion, Iacobe. This was Lucy and JSP's debate, but I just thought it utterly ridiculous for him to deny that college would be any asset for someone who wants to teach her children exclusively for most of their young lives. Of course knowing more will make one a better teacher! You're an engineer, Iacobe, and I'm pretty sure you're not personally planning to homeschool your future children. So of course you haven't chosen classes with that in goal in mind. A woman who knew she wanted to pursue that course, might. And even for you I imagine there's been some improvement in your written skills, etc. Very few schools in the country today will really let people graduate without a "lick" of the liberal arts.
Again, if you haven't had the chance for college, you'll do what you can and all the best to you. But do we *want* our children learning Latin? Music? Literature? Church history? Composition? These are all fields where it is a great advantage for the teacher to know a lot more than the pupil. How likely is a girl to get much into these things if she's educated only by her own homeschooled mother, who was educated by the girl's homeschooled grandmother, none of whom went to college? Outside resources might help to some degree, but this can only go so far. Is she supposed to learn Latin in a correspondence course from the day the first child is born? I thought she was occupying her time cooking and caring for the million babies she was supposed to be having. And it really is a lot more difficult to learn these subjects on one's own. By far the most natural thing would be to send her to college.
Of course, if you're willing to send the kids off to school, this gives you a *partial* remedy (though it's still much better if lessons at school can be supplemented at home). Anyway, I've been told repeatedly that this is tantamount to handing their souls to the devil.
Again, I've never said that a relatively uneducated mother *cannot* under any circumstances be a good homeschooler. But as a general trend, it has to be helpful for her to know more. I can't really see how this point would even be controversial.
First off as a response to Joe Six Pack’s comment, “My comments about the sad state of higher education had to do with Lucy's breathless endorsement of higher education being a panacea for so many social ills.” As Clara said, my comment was speculative and I will willingly admit was weak. However, I doubt few will disagree with my saying that repressing women and their education does happen to be a prominent characteristic of certain Muslim and backwards countries.
As far as Anon’s wonderful spread of “how it should be”, “if the world were perfect…” roles of the mother and father, I would agree with him or her (though I am guessing a him) that this is how things should be. However, this is often not the case. My mother always played the prominent role in my religious upbringing, and still has an excellent influence and me today as I continue to grow spiritually.
My mother had no more than a public high school education when she home schooled me from grades 2 – 4. She did a superb job in my opinion as when I entered the public school realm again I was a bit ahead. It is in fact possible to school your children with minimum education. But Clara has a very good point. Think about how much more a women can enrich her child’s education if she is knowledgeable in something that could be useful to her child.
I will also point out that my grandmother, my mother, and I were all quite “un-catechized” growing up. It has only been recently that my mother and I have, sort of together, undertaken the task of learning about our faith. When my mother was young she had interest in becoming a nun. Thank goodness for my sake, she didn’t become one! But if she had been given the opportunity for a college education, I often wonder if she would have pursued learning about her faith. This certainly would have led to a better faith formation of her children.
And there is one other very good reason for education of women which I believe we all have been overlooking. And this would be livelihood, the ability to earn money. The fact of the matter is, not every person gets married. We keep looking at women as wives and mothers, in which case, it may not be absolutely necessary for a woman to have a degree. But women are also single, and religious. Sometimes we all walk around thinking our prince charming will come for us on a white horse but perhaps God has other plans for us. You don’t just decide you’re going to get married, God gives you a spouse. So women should be prepared to support themselves at least as a backup plan to marriage (though it’d be nice if they had genuine interest in expanding their intellect).
Case in point, my sister. My sister wants desperately to marry and have children and has been preoccupied with this for quite some time. She has been dating a man who has no interest in marriage, at least not in the foreseeable future. Before this she invested all her time and energy into dating other men. For two years in college she just goofed around assuming she’d get her MRS. However, this has not been the case and now she’s flunk out of college and is back home with no option but to work a minimum wage or slightly above minimum wage job. Minimum wage in New York, as we all know will get you about $14,580 a year if you don’t take any vacations. Luckily my sister has a home to go to, but if she were stuck without a caring family it is awfully hard to purchase a car, pay rent, and pay off college loans and feed yourself on that kind of income. If my sister had stuck with her education she could be on her way to a degree and still have some free time for looking for that husband she wants. And if God hadn’t given her a spouse by graduation time, then she would able to support herself.
An education also separates the meaning of a husband from the meaning of a livelihood. Meaning, in my opinion, a woman is more likely to marry for love than out of what she might feel is necessity because she can’t have a home and support herself without a man.
Perhaps also my perspective on education is different as my grandparents were poor immigrant farmers and I am one of few people from my family to go to college.
Clara, the biography that I read wasn’t at all extensive, it was very short and simplistic, and entitled “Edith Stein, Scholar, Feminist, Saint” and was written by Freda Mary Oben. I may just want to read a more detailed biography and will look into the one by Alasdair MacIntyre – I am not familiar with that author.
And Anon, I will not be putting aside my other books but I will look into the one you recommended. Thank you for the recommendation.
JoeSixPack,
I am by no means an ‘expert’ concerning the Masonic issue or the plans to usurp a social order that has already been usurped. However, I am troubled like you concerning the general ‘sense’ of education as well as the ‘sense’ of Catholicism presently underway. The Marxist familial notion, which is akin to the Masonic notion, is generally speaking what we already know: the family is not an autonomous unit endowed with natural rights but a productive unit at the service and disposal of the state. As de Beauvoir exhorted the female to engage the world, leave the domestic travail, so Marx before her exhorted his male salon to plant the notion that both sexes should be equal as ‘worker’ for the benefit of the state. This notion was also employed by the National Socialist Worker’s Party, otherwise known as the Nazi Party. The purpose of this was obviously to provide greater efficiency for the state but also to erase the convictions of what came before; most notably religious. However, the most pernicious aspect of this construct is that fact that the children are then formed (‘educated’) by the state, thus nullifying the parental role in respect to natural law. This is a simplification of course; however this is the nascent notion of the concept.
As we know philosophy is ‘delayed action’, once an idea is planted, it is hard to suppress whether that idea is right or wrong. The idea of women’s ‘equality’, as manifested in the status of ‘worker’ is an easy opiate to swallow and to administer. This ensures the triumph of ‘job’ over ‘vocation’. It is then that ‘rights’ are pursued or demanded recognizing ‘equality’ relating to ‘job’ yet ignoring an individual’s authentic vocation. Generally speaking, the non-theistic state, not to mention the a-theistic state, will have no problem allowing any and all to work, for it provides additional capital. In fact this is the state we are currently experiencing in the U.S.A. We should not assume some grand altruism in the current state of affairs, for quite frankly, the drive for ‘education’ in the current milieu strikingly appears to be following along the same Marxian lines. The husband and wife work, increasing the tax-base of the government, increasing capital gained by capitalists and increasing dysfunction, in virtue of parental absence, in the family. The dysfunction can lead to divorce, certainly to therapy and to the ‘modern’ conviction that marriage as traditionally understood is untenable. The children are then left to the ‘system’ of public and sadly private education. There, they inculcate the lessons of the foundationless utopia man has endeavored to create from time immemorial.
Therein, the coalescence of opiates such as unscrupulous power, unfettered individuality, empowerment, careerism, narcissistic self-esteem and the like are byproducts of a milieu that seeks to redefine the very nature of man and his notional existence. This is an education for fools. It is also a byproduct of the enlightenment in that it presupposes that man (collective noun for you fem types) is capable of rising above the heavens, casting off the bonds of his mortal limitations and that all men can be equal, (equality) free (liberty) and share in the brotherhood (fraternity) of the new tower of Babel through the instrument of ‘education.’ But notice the fruits of this ‘education’.
Among the critics of the Novus Ordo, there is a saying when the priesthood of the people of God is discussed, it is as follows: ‘If everyone is a priest, no one is a priest.’ I think this is a perceptive statement. Now let’s apply it to the American world: ‘If everyone is collegially educated, no one is collegially educated.’ Now I know there will be those reading this who will question the logic of this statement (hopefully using Socratic Logic) but I simply use it to illustrate a point. When a student graduates from college today, he receives no more than a cursory introduction to the ‘major’ he pursued. This cursory introduction years ago was known as a ‘high school’ education. The level of education beyond this is now known as ‘graduate level’ which years ago was an educational supplement given to a promising ‘high school’ student by either a parent, family member, priest or guildsman. The point I am illustrating is that education has eroded as has practically every standard by which quality and social mores were once guaranteed. This blurs the notion of the standard—and where standards are lacking there is space for a novelty which supplants memory and tradition. I have described it with education, I will now say it is apparent within the Church is the person of JPII. I do not seek to calumniate but if he is the standard of ‘Great’ or the Papacy then what does it say about Leo?
Finally, with my previous posts in mind, I am not opposed to the education of the female but one should not suppose a societal altruism or ‘good’ espoused by the plurality in the current social construct. Again, just because things are what they are does not mean it is for the best. It is the hallmark of our society and the egalitarian elite to ignore the ‘should we’ in any ethical question but to enshrine the ‘can we’ in an unethical pursuit. Make no mistake about it, these are ethical questions—the vocations of the male and female touch the core of the person and as such extend to ethical consequences. This is all I have to say concerning this topic. However, there is an interesting article about the feminist question, authored by a ‘professional philosopher’ no less, at the following URL: http://www.newswithviews.com/Yates/steven21.htm. I think this would be useful and empowering reading for Clara and Lucy.
Iura Tonantis
My dear, dear Iura Tonantis,
I appreciate what you are trying to do. But it isn't necessary! There are no "fem types" and certainly no radical feminists on this blog. Everybody here agrees that gender roles are important. I frequently use masculine pronouns in an unmarked sense. I am getting married (gasp! shudder!) to a very traditional man as of next summer. And none of us here are relativists.
As a woman in academia I have been resisting the philosophical trends that you describe for years. I'm not trying to undermine the traditional family; I'm just trying to make sure reactionary impluses don't allow us to forget that it's good for girls, as well as for boys, to study and to learn. God bless you, but try not to make too many assumptions about your audience!
Lucy,
I am assuming that you have a philosophical background. That is why I recommended that book. It may be difficult to navigate through if you don't have a philosophical background but either way it is a valuable text.
iura tonantis
Dearest Clara,
Without sounding too pedantic, I think that you made one too many assumptions about my post, a product delivered by an audience member. I clearly stated that I was not opposed to the education of women--perhaps you had a reactionary impulse in thinking that I did oppose it? That you are a woman working in academia, cognizant of our social perils, matters little to me--but what matters to me is that you embody that wisdom and virtue, letting it radiate without words or pageantry. As far as 'no feminists on this blog', that is a topic for another post I surmise, since it is reasonable to assume, given the current constitution of America, that there is not one woman here who is not a latent feminist.
Iura Tonantis
Anon,
I read your link. I certainly hope that by including that link you are not suggesting I am a radical feminist! (I would be quite offended to think that someone thinks I am that stupid).
While reading the article by Yates I sensed a distinctive tone of fear in his writing - fear that women are taking over the world. Fear that women are taking over jobs, academia, etc...
Yate's would be glad to know that this world is very much still a man's world. One need not look further than war. He mentioned men being the one's to fight in battle. Well, that is because men start the battles. Men also bring about the peace. Why do you think that people shake their heads when they hear about women and children being killed in war? That is because they are innocent of the happenings of this world, at least in the general sense. Men are overwhelmingly the political leaders of this world. Men still lead in academic fields, in the work force and in all other-than-domestic realms. And, men, let us not forget, lead the Church.
I think that men fear educated women because of what some women choose to do with their education. That is, women who have chosen marriage and children and have abandoned them to persue worldly ambitions. This by no means I think warrents discouraging education for all woman simply because some don't do what's right with it. We must simply pray that more Christian women become educated and use their education to do what is right and reverse the bad the feminists do.
However, I do think that it is of particular concern that these radical feminist women have made it into the faculty of our colleges. It is a turn off to me as I can imagine it would be more so for men. It is also of particular concern I think that our country (USA) is leading in this radical feminism which has quite permeated our culture for about 50 years now.
I resently did a very small "research project" I would say more an investigation of sorts in an industrial city in Italy. While there I did a comparison of what the US and Italy provided by law to working mothers for maternity leave and benefits. Not only was Italy's benefits far better, but Italy had far fewer working mothers. Less than 30 percent of mothers work (outside the home) in Italy whereas a little over 50 percent of US mothers do.
I hoped to find a working Italian mother to interview her about the maternity leave and benefits she experienced. I walked up and down every major commercial street in that city and could find very very few working women, and of the women who were working I could not find one that was a mother of young children. Though the lack of an interview I'm sure detracted from my final project I felt sort of triumphant in knowing that so few mothers were working.
Where were all the mothers? Not in the businesses but during the day the streets were filled with mothers who were proudly parading their babies around in strollers. At first I thought "why do there seem like so many more babies here than in the US?" But then I soon realised that this was simply because Italian mothers were out with their children whereas American babies are hidden away in daycares all day. Or, if you do see mothers with children in public the mother is usually dragging them around after work or to the groccery store. The birth rate is actually lower in Italy than in USA (I believe).
At any rate, the trend of the radical feminist and working mother is disturbing in the States, but I sense a reversing trend happening, sort of a neofeminist movement and yet with this trend I don't think any less women are going to college. I think more women are opting to get the degree, have their families and then put their degree to use only after the children are grown.
No, I do not have a "philosophical background" though I'm not sure how one would define such a construct. But I can read just about anything I want/need to!
Ha! No, Iura Tonantis, this is too ridiculous. You barge in spouting irrelevant things about Masons and Marxists and radical feminists, quote further irrelevant passages from the Council of Trent, answer not one of the points from my actual post, and then insist that you agree with its central point anyway (so why were you commenting, exactly?).
Further, since you have admitted to being a de facto misogynist (that is, resenting without exception all women who live within the bounds of this country) it seems fairly obvious that it will make no difference whatsoever what Lucy or I actually say; our latent feminism, progressivism, modernism, egalitarianism and careerism will come radiating in waves all across the internet!
May God bless you, particularly if you happen to be in need of a wife! If you continue the conversation with Lucy, do not descend to nastiness or I will delete your posts and/or disable the comment feature on this thread.
Count me amused, Clara. As I've promised not to butt in, I'll leave it at that.
My dear Clara,
My retort will be in kind, though I must say you seem emotionally and verbally flustered right now. I am sure you will enlist the aid of a few friends who are currently scratching at the door. As far as Lucy is concerned---as well as to you--to quote a line from a man for all seasons "I wish none harm, I will none harm, I think none harm."
Delete what you will.
Clara,
I think it's a terrible weakness that you continually resist the idea that there are latent ideas or programming within us that are contrary to rightly ordered Catholicism.
How can we be part of this totally uncatholic society, exposed to the satanic mass media, many of us educated for decades by a masonic and marxist system, and not have some tendencies that need to be resisted in order to grow as good Catholics.
Also, I think Anon has raised some good points that directly apply to this discussion. Your replies to him are emotional and curt, and then threaten to delete his postings?? I didn't see one harsh word or personal attack from the man.
I'll again reiterate that you made an excellent case for the education of women in the abstract. But Anon's comments should not be dismissed. We're in a battle for our lives with the forces of Modernism, Marxism, and Masonry, and I think we shouldn't dismiss looking at this issue through the lens of this fight. Or, we do so at our own peril.
Going back to your responses to Anon, the funny thing to me is that this is so typical of academic types. They think they are such lovers of freedom of thought and dialogue until they meet up against undeniable Catholic truth, and then they turn into petty dictators.
Oh, I don't doubt that we all have disordered sensibilities, in various ways, but that isn't the basis for any kind of discussion. If you make an argument, and I reply, "Well, that's just the Turkish heat fogging your brain," your argument remains unanswered, even if it was in fact heavily influenced by excessive heat. Likewise with appeals to disordered sensibilities in answer to an argument.
But when, after a man has posted four times, I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what he thinks he is proving and how it relates to the topic at hand, it is time to stop, and seek more intelligent conversation elsewhere.
By the way, I don't really know on what basis you both classify my remarks as "emotional." I assure you, the only strong emotion I have felt in the course of this conversation is amusement. If strong adjectives are indicative of a loss of emotional control, then you, Six Pack, must be in a positive frenzy practically every time you visit this blog.
Clara
Please spell out exactly what points you want answered. My first post was to Sacerdos, the next one of substance was to Lucy, then I replied to six pack's request and then I truly encountered you--in all your philosophical grandeur. Lest I should think that you are scratching your head because you simply did not grasp my points--; please direct my wayward mind to the harbor of 'the intelligent conversation.'? There, I long to moor alongside the pier of wisdom, drop my accomadation ladder and set forth upon my sea-legs to the nearest pub. Ah! Guinness! I can taste it now!!
Well, I myself became curious about the emotional level when deleting was threatened to Iura Tonantis for reasons which were not at all apparent to me.
I wish you'd read what I say before drawing conclusions about it. I threatened to delete *future* posts only in the event that our friend chose to "descend to nastiness" in continued conversation with our other guest. It was purely a protective measure; I did not wish to see her become the object for whatever misogynist angst our various guests might be wishing to vent against the nearest available prey.
If you think this is a foolish worry, please consider that we had both already been accused of being "malleable to modernity," of being feminists, and of being the mouthpieces of Marxism and Masonry. For a Catholic, it is hard to imagine a graver insult to one's honor, and I made the mistake of assuming that I must have said something wrong to provoke this meanspiritedness, but it turns out that, no, all women warrant these labels necessarily just by virtue of living in the United States today. So, no reason to take it personally! But we agreed that each of us was in charge of monitoring the threads that we start, so I for one still feel some responsibility for preserving civil discourse on my own threads. Hence the threat.
Clara,
I still don't see why a discussion of the Marxist/Masonic dimension to women in higher education is so off the mark for this thread.
How narrowly focused do you want to keep these discussions?
In the abstract, you make a good case for allowing women access to higher education. But we live in a real world not an abstract one.
Perhaps women are more malleable to the lures of modernity?
Let's discuss it.
If you think he's off his rocker, let him put forth an argument.
Instead you pull an oh so typical reaction that is shades of the Lawrence Summers at Harvard broo-ha-ha.
(Would it be sexist to say that if the Society chose all gender neutral screen names, that we'd be able to pick out the lady.)
To Clara,
I usually don’t cross swords with a woman, it being against my chivalrous nature to dominate by a display of superior power over what is inferior by nature. Moreover, I can stand neither blood nor tears, nor worse—going to bed hungry. And that’s the crux of it; no sooner does a woman raise her head in pretentious intellectual rebellion, than she abandons her vocation: faithful employment in the scullery. From there she becomes a Trojan Horse for the Masons, Marxists, and the Devil himself.
It’s obvious from reading your tome, which by clear logic and lofty ideas would make a tomb for an archbishop, that you know neither beans about theology nor the baking of an apple pie. Mince Meat is more to your liking. Having made hash of a noted intellectual prelate, you then—with pen dripping of red ink—go after the average Joes, making them look as if they had taken five beers too many. Consequently it would seem that women as well as children should be seen but not heard. On second thought after consulting traditional oracles it is now conclusive that women should not be seen at universities, public places, or wherever men may gather. “Women should be neither seen nor heard.” If you must leave the confines of the home, I and my friends in Turkey recommend a burka and face covering of soundproof material.
Amicus
It would be very interesting if we could have a discussion among the ladies about this problem. The posts from the gentlemen come across as threatening and aggressive.
My heart is saddened by the animosity toward the feminie sex displayed here. We live in strange times and my heart mourns for the feminine society that has been lost. Denying higher education to women is not the answer. Creating a new paradigm of higher education is.
The Church has always lifted up the lot of women, not consigning us to breeding stock. We each have an immortal soul and need to cultivate the gifts that God has given each of us. Some of us will never marry (for various reasons); some of us will not be blessed with many children; some of us will be widowed early; some of us will not be blessed with holy and wise husbands. Each of us is responsible for claiming and lerning the truths of the faith. Would you withhold the means by which we may come to learn the faith and be able to pass it along to our dear little children?
There is a stained glass window at Solesme that depicts the Blessed Virgin dictating to St. John. How much she must have known. What an incredible gift was given to St. John to have her living in his house, to have her to ask about the teachings of Christ. What she must have learned during those "hidden years"!
While women are not chosen to be in the forefront of the Church, we are permitted to bring our God-given wisdom and knowledge to the Church and should not be belittled for our gifts.
Just as the ladies should not judge all modern men by the standard to modern society, please be true gentlemen and do not judge all of us ladies by such a low standard. We are fightly mightily against the sometimes overwhelming pressure of modern society to abandon home and hearth. We do the best we can and the need support of our gentlemen to persevere.
Well said, Mary's Daughter! But I also wish to insist that my apple pie should not be subjected to such slander! Though, in truth, the key lime appears to be pie of choice among the gentlemen of this august Society.
If you want a double standard, a true traditional approach, where women are protected, but on the other hand they know their place, then fine. But you can't have it both ways.
Equal rights!!! But we want the chivalry too. You're all cafeteria-Traditionalists.
Regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary. She certainly is a good model for all women (and all men for that matter). She was a fountain of wisdom. And guess what, she probably never stepped inside a lecture hall, so I'm not sure how your poetic words about our Lady help to support Clara's thesis. Mary homeschooled the Son of God without a college degree. Mary seems to be a case for the other side of this debate.
joe six pack,
Were there universities in first century Judea? Did the Apostles go to university? Did Jesus?
With that argument, no one would go to university.
We do not live is first century Judea. We live in our own time and place. We cannot live in another age (as much as we sometimes may wish we could). For better or worse, we live here and now.
Personally, I do not like having to work outside the home. The economics of my husband going throuh several job cuts has forced this situation. My own mother had to work because my father drank away all the money (he was not that way when she married him). She slaved as a cook in a hot restaurant seven days a week, because she did not know how to do anything else. She instilled in her daughters that a woman can never know when she will be called upon to support her children, so it is best to get an education so we could do something less grueling than she. She was not prepared for supporting her family and suffered greatly (as did we when she could not be home with us even when we were ill).
So, every woman does not have a male protector. We live in a fallen world. We have to make our way as best we can. The blessed ones among us have loving husbands.
I do not hate men because of my father. I forgave him years ago and do pray for his soul. I love my husband and have been married for 30 years. We both realize that ideally, I would have stayed home with our son, but modern economics prevented that -- when the man of the house loses his job and has to work temp for a while, then everyone has to pitch in. His job after the last cut was a deep reduction. So I work too. Am I to be reduced to menial labor because you deny me an education?
I am not a feminist. I have fought against them for decades. However, I know that I stand before God as a person of worth. God gave me a brain and life in a time when women can gain an eduation and learn about the things of God. I have no desire to be a priest, or a lector, or anything else. However, I do have a deep, deep hunger for knowledge of God. Are you going to deny me that? Will you cast the first stone?
All of you guys talk so blithely about "women" as if we are all one amorphous blob. We are individuals who, like you, are made in the image and likeness of God. We are your mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters. Will you consign us to a life of drugery and ignorance? Are you going to join with the Muslims and consign us to a life of invisibility behind a burka, inside purdah? If so, then you should not call yourself a Christian. Remember that Christ talked with women and some number of his disciples were women.
Plese regain your sense of Christian charity and stop attacking us because we are what God made us.
Dear Clara,
Joe Six Pack thinks Our Lady’s education is a case against you but it is traditionally believed that Joachim and Anna brought Our Lady to the temple for instruction at an early age. She stayed there for 11 years. The routine of the day had every variety of assignments: domestic duties of making unleavened bread for festival days, the distilling of oil, and the making of wine. It is believed that she was the first sacristan, having provided everything that was needed for the Last Supper. We know that she could embroider and was an expert weaver since she wove the garment of Our Lord that was without seam, for which the soldiers rolled dice.
She also learned dancing and singing handed down from the time of King David. We know that she composed her own canticle. She learned about the great women who preceded her, Eve, Sara, Rebecca, Rachel, Judith, Esther, and Ruth. She learned the history of her people and that of the Egyptians, the building of the Pyramids as well as that of the Temple. Besides her native tongue of Aramaic, she learned Greek into which the Bible had been officially translated at Alexandria. She also learned the original Hebrew from which the Septuagint had been translated. It was the language of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Paradise. She learned about all the countries and their rulers that had left their mark on Jerusalem: Antiochus, the Ptolemies, the Babylonians, Alexander, Pompey, and Caesar. She learned the culture they had left also.
Mary studied the story of creation, the Mosaic Law, the prophets, the Psalms and the books of Wisdom. She was developing all the talents God had given her under the tutelage of the priests and women who had charge of the virgins who lived in the Temple. Solomon had asked for Wisdom and with it came the knowledge of all branches of science. God did not withhold his gifts of knowledge from the woman who would be given Wisdom personified. I think you could emphatically say that Our Lady left home to receive a “Higher Education.”
If all mothers had that type of education to pass on, their sons wouldn’t have to go to Universities either.
Iucundus
Excellent points from both Daughter of Mary and lucundus. And thank you Clara for your kind defense in threatening to delete posts in the case of someone becoming too offensive, and then being misunderstood.
I think however that some of the male antagonists who argue against the college education of women have ignored my post about education being a practical means of support of the unmarried woman (and also to be added to this is Daughter of Mary's point about husbands who are unfortunately injured or out of work and the case that wives must out of necessity support the family).
But, let's assume for just a moment that women should not be educated. Then I would say fairly enough that men should not be allowed to learn how to do any of the following: launder their clothing, mend their clothing, cook their food, decorate their place of dwelling, vaccum, dust, sweep, or mop; these are all the jobs of the wife and mother.
Yes, if woman are not to become educated in a field for the purpose of earning money, then neither are men allowed to learn how to do, or do, any women's work in all fairness.
Men must live with their mothers and rely on their mothers to do all traditional tasks for them until a wife is obtain, whenceupon the wife will take over.
What if living with Mother is not possible and a wife is non-existant? Too bad, men, this is your fate, to wear dirty clothing and to live in squalor.
Does this (above) statement sound ridiculously absurd to you? It sounds ridiculously absurd to me!!! But NO more absurd than the following, and parallel statement:
What if living out of father's pocket is not possible and a husband is non-existant? Too bad, women, this is your lot, to live in near poverty and remain ignorant.
Do you see the parallel I am trying to draw? It is just as much a necessity that a single, unmarried woman (which most women in college are) to learn the "work of a man" in order to survive as it is for single, unmarried men (as most college men are) to learn the tasks of a woman in order to survive.
There are points in our lives when we all have to cross the gender lines, beome a little "androgenous", and learn how to do things that, at the moment, no body else is going to do for us!
No body is or is ever going to in the forseeable future just give me money to survive any more than some woman is going to volunteer to keep house (appartment) for a man living at college.
So if those men against the college education of women would like to send their financial support to me, I will gladly follow their recommendation and drop out of my university immediately. I would in truth MUCH rather spend my time reading books of my choice, the ones I find truely educating than reading college textbooks full of nothing and listening to my professors tell me what is up and what is down! But until one of you volunteers to cloth and feed me and pay my rent, I will continue on with my degree program in order to obtain a decently paying job and better provide for myself what no one else will.
At the risk of chivalry: bravo, Clara for your reason and common sense--and your fidelity to reason and common sense.
For the most part, I find the comments by the male commentators boorish. And oh yes, poorly reasoned, filled with irrelevancies and pointless slanders against the feminine sex, and you specifically.
Bishop Williamson is a fool. Many, many American bishops in the current ecclesial structure are fools, and far worse. That doesn't mean he's not a fool.
We will never restore the Mass of the Ages and the full patrimony of the Faith with a) someone like Williamson spouting off his nonsense (however sometimes amusing in a Blimpish way he can be); b) people like certain male bloggers who write careless screeds such as the ones in these blogs.
What would Leo XIII say of these illiterate ramblings? (Oh, I forgot, he was a closet naturalist.)
Guys: knock it off. Clara trounced you, fair and square
Dear Clara,
Having been left adrift for several days searching for the port of ‘intelligent conversation,’ I have taken it upon myself to be replenished underway so I may chart a course of my own. You have ignored my bridge-to-bridge communications and my solemn declaration of intention saying that I wished none harm. Yet, I have had a false prejudice lodged against me which has stirred up the rant of ‘misogyny.’ This word, like so many others in our contemporary verbal repository is no more than a bomb, a diversion, a stall tactic, a shutting down of sorts that hints of dissimulation. I would not presume to think that you and the additional females opining here are misandrists? Nevertheless, what displeased you was the notion of latency applied to feminism and how it may extend to you.
In psychrometrics one can study the amount of sensible heat and latent heat in a room. When you first walk into a room, if it is hot, you seek to eliminate the sensible heat, because it is that heat which is most apparent to the senses. With conditioning, there is a palpable difference that you can feel by the reduction of humidity but the conditioning has to work it’s hardest to eliminate the latent heat that lies embedded in the carpets, the rugs, the upholstery and the like. By way of analogy, whenever a social ‘philosophy’ is dispersed it effects people, places, things and ideas on a sensible level. We may see it effect fashion, architecture, agriculture and methodologies. As Aristotle noted, “…sight is the sense that especially produces cognition in us and reveals many distinguishing features of things.” So, we see the palpable changes in our society starting at the interpersonal level and then beyond unto what our society esteems or shall we say; may currently esteem. However, as we know, it is the effects and their affects that give rise to mental circumspection. Over the ages after these effects have taken hold, the changes and dispositions become deep-seated and if their removal is sought, the endeavor may be difficult, even to the point of necessitating a reform of sorts. It should be noted that one man’s reform is another’s revolution—even an insurrection.
I hope I am in safe company to say that a dispersion of a social ‘philosophy’ or a revolution of sorts has occurred. Indeed, it occurred some time ago. Its effects and affects are intensely palpable, unless one is drunk with that inane volitional dissent which is the hallmark and plague of man’s modern confusion. Such is the case with feminism. It is not in the main the principle subject for objection. It is a subalternated disorder of this pernicious social ‘philosophy’. It is an effect that has wrought innumerable notional affects among men and women. It is deep-seated and societally enshrined as a virtue of sorts. There is a distinction between a type of ‘authentic’ feminism and the radical feminism that destroys helter-skelter, however there has been an intermingling of the two strands and when one seeks to parse them out, he usually is greeted by the appellation ‘misogynist’.
In seeking to eliminate the sensible effects of that disordered feminism, it is not enough to start wearing a skirt or baking a better apple pie but to discern our motives and to engage in an intensely spiritual, historical, philosophical and theological circumspection. We must seek the causes and see, beyond the immediate remedies, if we have been infected by this virus in our social structures, political structures, notional structures, educational structures, religious structures and familial structures. If we acknowledge that this is a disordered social structure, than we can’t be malleable to modernity.
All too often we seek the practical, enshrine the practical and say of the speculative that it is impractical, quixotic, naïve and puerile. We hear them say, “We are here now; we have to deal with these (aforementioned) structures in the current milieu, perhaps one day we will gain a better understanding of the sexes (or any such similar topic) and leave this state of perpetual becoming.” I disagree. To subject the current structure to thought, contemplation and circumspection does take time and as such the action does occupy a space in time but we already have the tools to deduce that the current template is unquestionably broken. To go on within this template is to use its tools and to be formed by its ideas, its structures and its values. This is where we are. We have been infected and to become ‘disinfected,’ save for a singular grace of God, takes a lifetime of toil in the fields of wisdom and love.
We are participating in these structures, inculcating their paradigm and becoming reconciled and ameliorated to the civitas hominis; wherein disorder is the only order of rule. As I have said, feminism is a subalternated effect of the overarching malicious defect that has plagued our world. It is so deeply embedded and intertwined with feminine life, as half-truths mix the good with the ill, that there is inevitably a latency borne about and carried deep within like the crevasses and subductions of upholstery hold stubborn ‘dust bunnies’ beyond the reach of the vacuum cleaner.
Herein I believe the authentic vocation of man comes into play; fortunately and unfortunately. Men, following the Catholic paradigm of vocation within the spheres of politics, religion, family et al, must first act with reason and charity. They must present the alternative and to do so they must pray and study assiduously. If, after they have presented the alternative and they cannot affect this infected social order, they should seek a land, a country, a government to which they can emigrate to either participate in a social order more conducive to natural law or more malleable to natural law. If such a place does not exist, then the unfortunate vocation of man arises which has the prospect of bringing about a fortunate end. He must inaugurate reform through physical action in order to protect his family and posterity. He must protect the true religion and to ensure the existence of authentic wisdom and love. The extent to which physical action can be reconciled to Catholicism is controversial to some but it is not without precedent and it certainly is not contradictory to natural law. This is the situation as I currently see it.
In light of this Clara, I would say that you can debate me (or the bishop) indefinitely about feminine education and the like but this entire situation is again left to the men. The men must act, they must save authentic femininity, and they must save authentic love because the women have lost their way—because they have become seriously infected by an effect of a greater problem. When enemies come, it is left to man to defend and to repulse in order to save what is good, true, just and beautiful. Currently, in America, whether the man is Catholic or Protestant, they are ill-prepared spiritually, mentally and physically to repulse almost any threat. This in not our home but while we are in exile we must tend and prune the garden, erect defenses and battlements to circumvent the enemy on every front. This is a work best left to men and rest assured, the women will constantly remind of this duty when this situation comes to pass or the enemy physically invades.
Finally, I did not wholly address your issues concerning the education of the female. My opinion can be summed up in the chapter entitled “Folly and Female Education” in G.K. Chesterton’s masterful work “What’s wrong with the World.” I suggest you, Lucy and Mary’s daughter read this work—I hope you don’t think he is a misogynist or too boorish? You can get his works for free at the following URL:
http://www.dur.ac.uk/martin.ward/gkc/books/
Iura Tonantis
Well said, Anonymous.
Pyrgopolynices, so you've decided to cast yourself as a miles gloriosus? Do you like Plautus?
I must confess -- I have not yet had time to read Clara's original post, which both looks fascinating and intimidatingly long. I know that she refers to a comment of mine, so hopefully I shall time to read the post before everyone ignores it. In any case, I wish to compliment Iura Tonantis' prose style. Secondly, your use of domestic similes -- and apt ones at that -- in a work addressed to women about women is deft (dare I say sly) work on your part. I would comment on the substance of your work, but that would be unfair since I haven't read Clara's original post yet.
First off Iura Tonantis, it is beyond me how you could say that education is not part of authentic femininity (and, with all due respect, what do you, a male think you know about authentic femininity anyway?). Regardless, I will read your bit by Chesterson.
I do sincerely hope and pray however, that if you should marry (if you are not already) and beget children (if you have none already), you have all daughters.
And, in raising your daughters I hope that you take St. Jerome's sound advice in raising girls. These are portions of Jerome's instructions to a father on the education and upbringing of his infant daughter:
"It is hard business to write to a little girl who does not comprehend what you are saying, whose mind you do not know, and whose inclination you vow with peril: to follow a famous orator’s speech, the promise is more to be praised in her than the reality. For how will you exhort a girl to self-restraint who wants cakes, who stammers in a babbling voice upon her mother’s lap, to who honey is sweeter than words? Will she listen to the deep sayings of the Apostle when she delights more in old women’s tales? Will she perceive the enigmas of the prophet, when a nurse’s scowl disturbs her? Will she understand the magesty of the Gospel when its brilliance dims the consciousness of every mortal being? Shall I urge her to subject herself to her parents, who with childish hand thumps her smiling mother? For these reasons our Pacatula [we must assume this is the name of the baby girl] will receive this letter, but will read it later on. In the mantime, let her learn the alphabet, form words, learn the names of things, and connect words into phrases. So that she may practice these things in ther tinkling voice, promise her a reward of little cakes, mead, whatever is sweet to her taste; she will hurry if she expect to recive spring-like flowers, shining gems, alluring dolls. Meanwhile she should also try to spin, even if she often breaks the threads, so that at some later point she will not break them. After her work, let her have some play, dangle from her mother’s neck, snatch kisses from relatives. Let her sing Psalms for a reward so that she may love what she is force to repeat, so that it will not be work, but pleasure, not a necessity, but a desire.”
Jerome also writes to another set of parents advising them how to raise their daughter who is dedicated to the virginal life:
“Such should be the education of a soul that is to be a temple of the Lord….Have made for her letters out of boxwood or ivory, and call each by its proper name….when indeed she begins to draw the stylus over the wax with shaky hand, either guide her tender fingers by putting your hand on top of hers, or carve the letters of the alphabet on a tablet…Choose a teacher of goodly years, life, and learning. I do not think that a learned man will be embarrassed to do for a relative or a high-born virgin what Aristotle did for the son of Philip….Daily let her recite back to you a set amount from the Scriptures. Let her learn by heart a number of versus in Greek – but let Latin learning follow it a once…Let her learn first the Psalter, let her divert herself with these songs and be educated for life by the Proverbs of Solomon. From Ecclesiastes she should get used to trampling underfoot the things of the world. Let her eagerly follow the examples of virture and patience in Job. Let her continue on the Gospels, never to be put down from her hand, and imbibe the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles with her whole heart, of her own free will…..”
Jerome continues to list things that she should learn, finally suggesting that the best way for her to learn would be for her to be sent to Belthlehem:
…If you will send Paula, I myself promise to be both teacher and nurse. I will carry her about on my shoulders; old as I am, I will fashion her stammering words much more gloriously than did the worldly philosopher [refering to Aristotle educating Alexander the Great]: the one I shall teach is not a Macedonian kin who would die in Babylon by poison, but a handmaid and bride of Christ, who will be offered to the Ruler of Heaven.”
Oh, and in the case that you did not for some strange reason comprehend what it was the Jerome was trying to get across, he is saying that the education of a handmaid and bride of Christ is far more imporant than and should be of far better quality (better quality education than one that could come from Aristotle) than the education of a great man (Alexander the Great).
So, in my mind it is indisputable that women should recieve higher education.
You may debate in what fields of study women should be learned, and you may debate by what methods women are taught. But you MAY NOT debate that it is so that women should be educated.
And to reiterate this point, I will be redundant (as redundancy seems to be of need in teaching men in certain cases) and copy the important part of Jerome's writings:
"…If you will send Paula, I myself promise to be both teacher and nurse. I will carry her about on my shoulders; old as I am, I will fashion her stammering words much more gloriously than did the worldly philosopher [refering to Aristotle educating Alexander the Great]: the one I shall teach is not a Macedonian kin who would die in Babylon by poison, but a handmaid and bride of Christ, who will be offered to the Ruler of Heaven.”
Lucy,
You must be confusing me with another individual, I never said
"education is not part of authentic femininity" I can hear the contempt and emotion in your words. You may not like what I say but please do not falsely accuse me of words I did not say. I will respond to you in due time as well because your linguistic tone quite contemptuous.
Will the participants in this conversation who sign in under anonymous please use some pseudonym? And, preferably, put it right up front instead of at the end? Thanks.
Iura Tonantis,
You're pushing the edge. After rereading Lucy's posts twice, I can't find anything at all to substantiate your accusations that she is emotional or contemptuous. She seems to me perfectly sincere and entirely within the bounds of charity, and, unlike you, she is offering citations and arguments of relevance to the point at hand. If you wish to discuss this issue on my thread, I expect you to do it courteously, rather than maligning and belittling your interlocutors without cause. If you cannot, you would do better to hold your peace.
I for one discontinued our exchange because you long ago made it clear that you are either unable or unwilling to carry on a rational discourse with others, particularly if those others happen to be women. You seek only a platform from which to discourse, and even as you ignore most of your interlocutors' actual points, you put heavy weight on an argument from privileged knowledge: you, as a man, possess a wisdom and insight that we, as women, are simply incapable of grasping. In fact, multiple women have now attempted to demonstrate that they do have a deep awareness of the very problems that concern you, and that they are actively seeking to address them. But you respond dismissively, with ungenerous and unfounded accusations of emotionalism and contemptuousness. And actually, this is quite unsurprising! If you take it as a premise that all women are irrational, infected by modernism, etc. it makes perfect sense to dismiss everything they say.
I think your assumption about the incomparably greater wisdom and insight of men (with yourself, presumably, as a noteworthy example?) is foolish and unsubstantiated, but there's no point in our hashing this out, because argument from privileged knowledge is by definition undiscussable. If you're right, we women are hopeless cases, and if I am, then you've got nothing useful to say. Either way there's no point in our talking anymore.
12:38 AM, August 30, 2006
was iura tonantis
By the way, for everyone else, Chesterton's position on women is actually rather interesting. He doesn't oppose women's education in a general sense, but he thinks they should get a different sort from men. I think, as with so many things Chesterton writes, that he's partly right and partly wrong. In some ways my (somewhat snarky) comment a few threads back about encouraging men to study trades while women study the liberal arts is somewhat in sync with Chesterton's suggestion. But maybe this would be an enjoyable thing to discuss on a different thread sometime soon? I was thinking of starting one some day soon, and explicitly inviting ladies only to comment. Would that be of interest to anyone? I think it would make for a different sort of conversation from what normally happens on these women-related threads.
And now, lest our guests conclude that only nastiness can inspire me to post, I wanted to offer my sincere and humble thanks to Lucy, Mary's daughter, Jacques and Iucundus for their contributions to this thread, all of which were much appreciated.
For Lucy and Mary's daughter, I think your point about women being prepared to support themselves is a good one. It *is* often very hard to make ends meet with only one income for a family; also, there are circumstances in which a breadwinning man is not be available, and then of course it will be much better if a woman is qualified to hold a job that will have decent hours and wages. The skeptic will argue, of course, that we ought to aim for a sitution in which women don't need to hold outside jobs in order to survive. He may be right about this, in which case you might suppose that in an *ideal* world it wouldn't be important to educate women.
But this is where the other point, echoed by both of you, by me, and also by Iucundus in his very interesting comment, comes into play. The joy that comes from contemplating God's laws and works is one of the most sublime of human gifts. Education helps us in this regard, and surely we should wish for a world in which both men and women would be able to enjoy this great advantage.
Finally, humble thanks to Jacques, who may be the only man other than my own dear fiance ever to defend me in one of these altercations. I, at least, deem that a truly gentlemanly act.
For the record, I bear no ill will to any of my detractors, and I will do you the courtesy of assuming that you put your philosophy into practice by making all sacrifices to defend the safety, honor and virtue of the women (and children) in your lives. In your discourse, however, I would encourage you to consider Jacques' warning. If you indulge yourself in too much reactionary rambling (as Bishop Williamson clearly does), you are likely to jeopardize your own cause.
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I'm looking forward to the "girls only thread."
Sort of like "The View" only populated by Catholics of various stripe.
Mrs. Six Pack has asked and received my permission to participate.
...and I though that post you deleted was an exceptionally good one. Even being a woman!
I've thoroughly enjoyed anon's posts.
Clara, you didn't stoop to deleting, did you??
Why? This won't do
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"Would that be of interest to anyone?"
Only if it cuts both ways and men who post here and can also restrict the genders of their "guest commentators."
Behave yourself, Iosephe! I expect these kinds of antics from others, but you should know better. You know that I am entitled to exercise censorship in order to maintain decency on my threads. In this case, I had not a moment's qualms about accepting Iura Tonantis' invitation to delete his comment. He stood in very clear violation of the ground rules established in the first paragraph of my post, and had been warned not once, but twice to be civil. There was not a single sentence in his post that was not intended as a meanspirited attack on me and/or other commenters on the thread. If Mrs. Six Pack enjoys this sort of personal invective so much, she can easily find it on the Jerry Springer show or on almost any program aired on women's television networks.
Tobias Petrus,
Are there conversations that you want to have which are being trampled by the interference of female commenters? If you think there are, then sure, have male-only threads. Look, I'm not trying to inspire a rash of "no girls" or "no boys" clubs; I just feel that women are often deterred from commenting on these threads by the harshness of the men who contribute. This was a possible solution that occurred to me. It would only be an occasional thing.
I read all of the original post and all of the Bishop's letter, but I've only skimmed through most of the comments, so I apologize for any redundancy in my remarks.
First of all, I would be interested in a ladies-only discussion. While the gentlemen surely have a valuable perspective on this matter, it is somewhat awkward for a lady to argue with a group of men about a question of femininity. Inevitably, some participants take advantage of this awkwardness to paint the lady in the worst possible light.
Furthermore, I agreed with most of Clara's post and I think there is a littleness of spirit in accusing her of being a feminist or an intellectual snob, merely because she makes reasoned arguments with clear, persuasive language.
Ideally, higher education is probably unneccesary for women, and very likely, coed higher education is problematic. However, we are not living in ideal circumstances and one has to take that into account. As several commentors pointed out, some women are driven into the work force by necessity and an education can lessen that burden. My liberal arts education was of value to me for even more important reasons. It drew me to a love and understanding of traditional liturgy and Christian culture. Throughout that education, my concept of femininity altered substantially and became more traditional! [And that coming from a homeschooler who grew up around conservative (and fairly traditional) priests and friends.]
In The Valiant Woman Conferences, published by Loretto publications and strongly recommended by Colleen Hammond, Monseignor Landriot discusses at length the issue of women's education. He concludes that the best wife is one who can attend to the household, but can also participate in an intelligent discussion. While the former duties are of greater importance, he recommends that, if possible, she improve her mind with a study of literature, philosophy, and the fine arts. He references St. Augustine - when he discussed philsophy with his friends, he often invited his mother, St. Monica, to join them. That was a great shock to his learned friends, but her wisdom was a source of joy to him. The Monseignor insists that, in a woman, knowledge should be more docile, gentle, and humble. However, he does not think knowledge is entirely incompatible with feminie virtue, as Bishop Williamson seems to suggest.
Anyways, thank you Clara for putting together such a thoughtful rebuttal.
Thank you, Raindear. Your comments are ever thought-provoking, and most of us here (myself included) can only aspire to be so unfailingly gracious.
Clara,
I do not delight in the squalor and depths of moral depravity that one finds on Jerry Springer, thank you.
Anon's comments were quite charitable and level headed, I thought. You on the other hand are lashing back like the "women" on Jerry Springer.
Might it be that there's some truth in what he's saying and it's hitting some nerves? (Though I understand the urge to defend oneself)
You (and the other ladies) are way too sensitive to the men's comments - and because of that, it's way too easy (and fun for them) to push your buttons. (My husband I think comes across like a complete jerk at times, but he's not really like that in person.)
I don't recall seeing any personal attacks. The only thing my husband reminded me of was that anon. advised your fiancee to think twice because of the mentality you are displaying. I didn't see that as a personal attack - not easy to hear, for sure...but I saw that as one male to another based on his perception of you and what could be a legitimate problem in a marriage.
Mrs. SixPack,
With all due respect, your standards for courteous seem a bit wanting. First of all, this is meant to be a forum for rational discussion, not personal counseling or criticism, and for that reason alone such a remark would have been out of place. Reflections on Clara's character are rather beside the point and therefore inappropriate.
Unless I am greatly mistaken, our anonymous friend is probably not an intimate acquaintance of Dr. Asinorum anyways. Thus, it is terrific impertinence for him to advice the Dr. on the wisdom of his future marriage.
I thought alluding to Mrs. Six Pack as some sort of Jerry Springer devotee was a tad bit rude, myself.
(I don't think she had a clue who Jerry Springer was until I told her!)
Can't Mrs. Six Pack disagree with you without being slandered as a Neanderthal? What's next is she a sex traitor?
These attempts to delegitimize those who disagree with you as uncivil, or as Lucy and other gals would have it, lacking a women's perspective are foolish and dangerous.
I think you are more intellectually close than you realize to those who say "how can a celibate male understand the life of woman,, we need women priests" or "keep your rosaries off my ovaries".
So you're not as radical as a Gloria Steinem; you're only as radical as say a feminist in 1910; does this make it any better?
You're just adopting an early form of feminism, and by today's standards it looks downright traditional.
I've heard women on this thread referring to other women as "breeding like livestock". (How wonderfully Christian is this notion?)
I've heard women on this thread make womanly life seem like a dangerous road, where one cannot rely on men, and need to be self-sufficient.
All of this is 1910 feminism. The feminism of the well educated elite women of that period. It's no less deadly. It's what brought us to where we are today.
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Just to be clear, this has nothing to do with shunning rational discourse. I delight in rational discourse, and in the early part of the thread I responded willingly to observations and reasonable objections put forth by Iacobus, RP, and yourself. But irrelevant personal attacks make discourse impossible, as do the constant attempts to attribute to me positions that I have never held. It is *you* who are bringing filthy and offensive feminist slogans into this public forum. I'm willing to defend the things that I say, but I can't be expected to defend things that I don't say!
Mrs. Six Pack publicly lauded a low and thoroughly inappropriate comment, which was ungenerous of her to say the least. Nonetheless, my remark does perhaps fall below the standard of courtesy that I would wish to maintain here, and so I beg her pardon. Let it be hereby known to all that Mrs. Six Pack does not in fact watch Jerry Springer.
Outside of that, however, I have never said an unkind word (or any word, I believe) about your wife, so no further apologies are necessary.
None of the other (very traditional) women on this thread seem to have found my remarks degrading to them, so I can only imagine that you're being excessively sensitive.
I am frequently struck (and saddened) by the notion that if even good Catholics (as presumably most of those who are drawn to participation in a blog discussion on a site such as The Cornell Society for a Good Time)cannot see eye-to-eye about important societal issues such as have been the subject of Clara's rebuttal post, then that doesn't give us much hope of evangelizing non-Catholics, does it? The dichotomy between Traditionalist Liturgical preference/leanings vs. Novus Ordo preference/leanings also seems to bear on this problem.
This has been on my mind of late, because I spent a great part of the Summer in email discussions with a Protestant (who claimed that I am the first Catholic who ever shared their beliefs with him)attempting to show him what he is missing as a non-Catholic. I don't know how successful I was, but, (and this is a separate point), there were times when I struggled with the sensation, "why bother?," and while I know this is not logical, part of why I think I felt that way is because of the lack of charity for one another that is prevalent even within the Catholic community of believers. It definitely detracts from our integrity as Catholics.
Have we become so corrupted by the post-Christian culture that we cannot even talk to EACH OTHER with respect and kindness?
I am sure that in some cases, the problem stems from the instantaneous, electronic medium in which our words can be misconstrued. It seems often to be the case that people claim to be misunderstood in their blog comments. I can believe it. Words without accompanying facial expressions, looking into the eyes of the person, vocal intonations, etc. are subject to great misinterpretation. Then all the more reason to be so careful HOW we say what we want to say here.
There is the sort of glib, sassy, know-it-all manner of speaking and interacting with each other that we have learned from the modern culture, which is so different from respectful, humble, good-listening, and polite way of conversing that was the standard in other eras.
There is also the fallout from the feminist revolution that has caused our men-folk to lose the habit of showing particular deference to a woman (even one with whom they disagree) just because she is a woman.
Surely there are more kindly ways to disagree than have been demonstrated on this thread!
Just something to think about.
"With all due respect, your standards for courteous seem a bit wanting. First of all, this is meant to be a forum for rational discussion, not personal counseling or criticism, and for that reason alone such a remark would have been out of place. Reflections on Clara's character are rather beside the point and therefore inappropriate. "
raindear,
First of all, I said "charitable", not courteous (I have some family that are very "courteous" to my face, but are a bunch of two-faced backstabbers...which would be uncharitable). I don't recall any ranting in T. Amicus Verus's posts...sorry, but I think his posts humorously (& charitably) speak truth...while pushing people's buttons.
If during the "rational discussions" something is said that seems to require fraternal correction, aren't we called to do that..in charity? Fraternal correction is so often taken as "personal criticism". Just because Amicus doesn't know Dr. A personally, doesn't mean he can't offer some advice. Outsiders can sometimes see things differently since they don't have any personal/emotional conflicts. I'm not saying he's correct or even that it was his business. We don't know people on this blog personally, but what people type here is all we have to go on. So if you want to open your mouth, watch what you say if you don't want to be misunderstood or commented on. Clara offered her views and opinions, other people offered theirs back.
Clara,
I didn't "laud" the comment. I offered my perception of his comments. I didn't perceive them to be a personal attack on you.
Apology accepted regarding Jerry Springer :)
Mrs. JoeSixPack,
Sorry for my ambiguity and mispellings. (: I think courtesy is a part of charity and the part of charity in question right now.
My understanding of fraternal correction differs from yours, but in any case, at the very beginning of her post Clara stipulated that this was not to become a forum for personal criticism. If you think that kind of discussion unfruitful, fine, but it seems unjust that you join in anyways and then complain when those standards are enforced.
"I think courtesy is a part of charity and the part of charity in question right now."
Raindear, I don't think this could possibly be better put.
Mrs. JSP,
To my mind, calling a post "exceptionally good" qualifies as lauding, but we won't quibble over that. Thank you for accepting my apology.
But do note that I even went so far as to establish an independent email account for the express purpose of receiving personal criticisms. Nobody has used it. When people are delighted to parade their ungenerous thoughts publicly, but uninterested in offering them in confidence, one has to wonder how charitable their intentions really are.
In case anyone missed it, the address is fraternalcorrection@yahoo.com.
Yes, it is a real address.
Clara, I would first like to thank you for posting a much-needed rebuttal. It is evident to me that you are a wise, intelligent, and mature woman. Congratulations also on your engagment and I pray that your marriage is a blessed, fruitful, and happy one.
Though I continue to disagree with some of the commenters, I will no longer be commenting on this post. I have been very offended at having been called a feminist more than once(albeit in a round-about way, it is quite a slap in the face) and quite frankly shocked that the education of women has been categorised by some commenters as radical feminism. Like I said, I would agree that the substance of education of women and method of education should probably be different than the education of men, but to eliminated it would be absurd.
And though I remain resolute I no longer wish to throw my pearls to swine, so to speak. So I'll just pray for you.
T. Amicus Verus says:
Thank you Mrs. Six Pack. I’m glad you appreciated my posts but this is only my third and I never mentioned Dr. A. That was someone else.
Lucy, Please don’t be offended with me. I think I can speak for everyone on this thread if I say, “We all love Lucy.” You had some great contributions and made your points well. Who would argue with Saint Jerome? Not even me. I am a “true friend” but my humor is kinda crazy. If you want a good laugh you should read the letters between Saint Jerome and Saint Augustine. Saint Jerome did not pull punches and got quite nasty while the latter just kept his cool. Eventually, they finally became good friends.
You guys should expect women to lunge back when you insult their intelligence, especially when it’s cloaked. On the other hand a man should be able to take an insult on the chin from a woman and find it humorous. To become indignant may indicate that you’re not sure of your own masculinity.
Clara, I sincerely think you did a great job on this from beginning to end. I was really your first defender on this thread. It wasn’t fair that you had to be the referee, since you had to bend over backward to be impartial. Next time let some else do the cutting and editing and don’t spare the white out. There should have been plenty more. At least I think we all agree that woman by nature are equal to man in intelligence.. If we are arguing about that, there really can’t be any intelligent discussion. Thanks for a good time
"First of all, this is meant to be a forum for rational discussion, not personal counseling or criticism, and for that reason alone such a remark would have been out of place."
Might I remind the ladies in this discussion that on more than one occasion *some* of them told the male participants things along the line of "I hope that you let your wife go back to school," "I hope you have all daughters," "particularly if you happen to be in need of a wife," etc. I understand that sometimes this was in response to a perceived offense. Still, all such comments count as personal jabs. As I see it, they differ in degree but not in kind from "think twice about marrying so-and-so." They are all personal and cutting. It seems as though they were meant as much as a jab as "serious" correction. I thank the ladies in advance for not saying anything about the "poor girl" I may end up marrying, in case you may feel so inclined to comment.
That said, I commend Clara for refuting the Bishop -- as far as that goes. And it does go quite a ways! The education St. Jerome mentions would be difficult to acquire without a B.A. -- it could be done, but it would be difficult. Due to any number of anti-Catholic influences in the world, many women would live in poverty conditions if required to work without a college degree. Correct that: many women DO live in poverty for this reason. If a woman has something to fall back on, that is good, even if she's a housewife. Husbands die, become sick, or go off to war (as some of us know very acutely). My own widowed mother currently works in a factory. If I were at home (i.e. a child) still, she likely could not provide for me. When it comes to picking a spouse, being college-educated myself, I will gravitate more naturally toward someone of similar background. Not having been home-schooled, I would feel "safer" doing so if the Mrs. had some sort of degree.
That said, Clara, I followed your St. Thomas link. I didn't see anything about women being essentially passive vessels in reproduction. Whence comes this claim? Perhaps the precise citation is lacking.
Williamson may be refuted, but there is more than this refutation in Clara's post. There's also a straw man: there is the claim that critics of NFP want women to have as many babies "as physically possible." This may not seem to be a major point, but it is. It implies something freakish, something like "stock-breeding," in having 12-15 children. If a married couple marry at a normal age (let's say early 20s for the woman) and have normal sexual relations, yes, she'll have lotsa kids, probably around 10. Unless they have serious reasons, then they shouldn't use NFP. Then that is the number of children God wants for them. So let's accept the fact that God made human beings in such a way that this is natural. A child every 2 years or so for maybe 20 years. That's odd only from the point of view of our culture. And the demographics of the western world are collapsing, so fertility may be a much higher good than professional training. We'll find out when we have to let in tens of millions of immigrants just to pay for the social security system. And when is now. Also, for several generations in this country, women did not have 10 children in order for 5 to survive. There should be enough anecdotal evidence from this blog to show that our grandparents and their parents frequently had 10+ kids who *survived* plus some who didn't. I don't see how there's some implicit rule in "increase and multiply" that we can slack off once medicine improves. I mean, we need to colonize Mars, right? :) In any case, my argument does NOT concern the proper limits of NFP, nor women going to college. It deals with a stereotyping of pro-fecundity folks as "stock-breeders" of humans, when all we're hoping to see is the realization of the actual, natural potential of human propagation.
The matter of chivalry. *Sigh.* I think that JSP has a point that women put forth points of view in a mixed forum and still expect chivalry. I don't think that that's likely. Mary's Daughter rightly notes that "women" are our wives, mothers, sisters, etc. Men do come to the defense of their wives, sisters, etc. -- women they have a *personal* relationship with. I don't do that with some anonymous woman -- it isn't my job, I'm not her "knight." Doesn't she have someone to stand surety for her? What I mean is, in threads such as this, I assume that we respond directly to the person we're dealing with. I don't think it's fair for a man to disagree, vigorously, with a woman, and then have her "knight" come in. That man will defend her simply because it's his job, not because she's necessarily right. I don't have someone here standing surety for me. When I disagree with someone, I disagree "man to man." But what if the other "guy" is a woman? Well, I think a lot of guys will agree that we put up with/ignore a lot of things that our female friends and relatives say and do. We think that feminine speech patterns, concerns, pet peeves, etc., are silly, trite, or "womanish." Of course, women think that men are aggressive and brash, so same difference. We tolerate these qualities in the individual members of the opposite sex with whom we have genuine relationships. But we have short patience with these same traits when strangers (as on a blog) express them. So maybe having a separate "women's only" thread might be good in fact. For some men, especially ones who are "guests," it will be too tempting to treat "womanish" writing by a woman the same way he treats "womanish" writing by a man -- with contempt. So having both sexes participate, in the absence of clear personal bonds that delimit what's in bounds and out, there's probably going to be extraneous tiffs unrelated to the matter at hand.
Additionally, a man's deference to a woman doesn't come free, as JSP points out. The Bible says that women should keep silent in Church and keep their questions for their husbands at home. The husband's job is to teach his wife. This provides motivation for the man, as he may otherwise be lazy. If he can impress a woman while learning about his Faith, everyone wins. Now, men are the only accepted ecclesial authorities. (Even Doctors of the Church like Sts. Teresa, Therese, and Catherine were subject to male confessors, Church censors, bishops, and canonization investigators.) Additionally, within the home they are to be the religious teachers of their wives. Grace builds on nature. This suggests that men are naturally better suited for the dissemination of religious truth at at least one notch higher than the female. Every male is a *potential* priest (teacher of the laity) or husband (teacher of his wife). Ergo, it seems that a certain preference should be given to what a man says in matters religious. I give more credence to statements about theology and dogma (not necessarily about devotions or spirituality) when a man states them than when a woman does.
I am not saying that women should believe nonsense or garbage because some man said it. I am suggesting that women looking for truth should seek out a trustworthy male teacher, at least to verify their female teachers and fellow students.
Why bring this up? It does not bear directly on whether women should obtain college degrees. However, the issue of "privileged knowledge" came up. Additionally, the same men who would "chivalrously" defend "their" women in internet conversations like this would probably also say "please, dear (or sis) come over here a minute so we can chat a sec," if he thought something she was saying was wrong. In other words, he'd expect some deference back. And the woman, being his wife, girlfriend, or sister, would forgive him for exercising some "superiority." Such natural and supernatural mutual forbearance is not likely to occur on the internet, as I see here. The women don't depend on their (supposedly) harsh critics here to mow the lawn, and the men don't depend on these (supposedly) emotional women to support them in times of gloom.
Lastly, I hold that anyone who would have voted for the 19th Amendment is by that very fact a "latent feminist." Of course, none of the ladies here could have voted for it in the first place, as they didn't have the right to vote before that amendment gave it to them. So my "test" may not even work for detecting feminist women.
As for the guy who, apparently, implied that the Catholic Church's proper policy toward women approximates the Mohammedan one of squalor and shame-killings, shame on you, sir! Even if you did think you were being "funny."
I have read accounts by *conservative* scholars who pinpoint the degradation of women in Moslem countries, as well as associated customs like the harem and genital mutilation, as part of what makes those countries so backward. Compare Chesterton's comments in "The Everlasting Man" about how the "Old Man" paradigm of human society is degradation and not primitivism.
On the other hand, early churches did have a separate women's gallery . . .
It took three hours to go through and re-read everything on this whole thread, so while I endeavor to keep my chin above my insane backlog of homework, please forgive me if I am unable to reply to anyone's comments regarding my post. If I took the time, it would probably be hasty, hence blunt.
To all—but especially to the men,
The following two columns are very interesting. Obviously, I should not even need to say—but I will: consider the source, consider the audience, consider their theology—or its absence, and consider the genders. I think the breakdown between these two is quite revealing and speaks most eloquently about our current topic.
http://www.forbes.com/home/2006/08/23/Marriage-Careers-Divorce_cx_mn_land.html
Anonymous, please choose a pseudonym. There are far, far too many people who go by "anonymous," and then everyone becomes confused as to who said what to whom.
12:14 AM, August 31, 2006
Was Boethius, those who have ears should hear and therein lies the rub.
Tobias Petrus,
Here are the relevant passages, and yes, they are from the portion of the Summa that I cited.
"This can be made clear if we observe the mode of generation carried out in various living things. Some living things do not possess in themselves the power of generation, but are generated by some other specific agent, such as some plants and animals by the influence of the heavenly bodies, from some fitting matter and not from seed: others possess the active and passive generative power together; as we see in plants which are generated from seed; for the noblest vital function in plants is generation. Wherefore we observe that in these the active power of generation invariably accompanies the passive power. Among perfect animals the active power of generation belongs to the male sex, and the passive power to the female. "
And this:
"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence; such as that of a south wind, which is moist, as the Philosopher observes (De Gener. Animal. iv, 2). "
As the reference indicates, St. Thomas is lifting this directly out from Aristotle, who taught that the man's seed gives a human being its form while the woman supplies only the ground. Aristotle believes in essence that all people are conceived as men. Sometimes something goes wrong (like the mother stands in the wrong sort of wind) and the development of the fetus is disturbed, leading to a defective man -- that is, a woman.
Needless to say, this is not the Church's present position.
Yep, I went to question 4 for some reason and not question 1.
A political philosophy professor of mine wrote a defense of a modified Aristotelian position vis-a-vis sexual relations. Recall that women have XX and men XY chromosomes. Under normal circumstances, women play no role in determining the gender of the child. Men do this, by providing either an X or a Y chromosome. We are the gender we are because of our father's gamete. Of course we obtain half of our genetic makeup from our mothers, and we really are of her flesh (therein Aristotle was wrong). However, the biggest difference in the "form" of human we become, the gender difference, is determined by the male contribution. *As far as gender goes,* the mother provides the same matter -- an X -- every single time, while the father provides the "form" -- X or Y.
Here is the link to Prof. Dobbs' article, which also (basically) criticizes women's suffrage: http://www.marquette.edu/polisci/Do
bbsAPSR96Women.pdf
Here is the link to all of Dobbs' articles: http://www.marquette.edu/polisci/Do
bbs.htm
The guy is a conservative Catholic, denounced abortion in class, and has 10, count 'em, 10 kids. Plus, check out that patriarchal beard!
Slight clarification: the mother provides *one* of her two X chromosomes, so there is variation on her end too. This, however, does not affect the child's gender
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Now, Tobias Petrus, even if you are too busy to answer, I would like you to reflect for a moment on these two statements (which I do hope are reasonable paraphrases of your position.)
1. I take statements about theology or doctrine more seriously when they come from a man.
2. Chivalry is for women with whom one is personally connected; women who participate in public forums should be prepared to have their comments weighed on their own merits.
Doesn't there seem to be a tension here? Either women's remarks should be regarded in the same way as men's, or else they (the women) should be given special consideration. Let me explain this point more carefully.
Chivalry, properly understood, is *not* only for women with whom one is acquainted. Does the knight have to have a getting-to-know-you session with the princess before rescuing her? Of course not. Indeed, one of the primary purposes of chivalry is to persuade a man to behave decently towards those women whom he might otherwise be sorely tempted to treat with contempt -- that is, women for whom he has no special feeling.
Naturally enough, men tend to address other men as equals. In the absence of other determining factors, they start with the assumption that other men should get the same respect that they themselves expect. They don't necessarily think of women in the same way, however. Women are assumed to be weaker, more emotional, etc. It becomes easy, therefore, to treat them dismissively or contemptuously. But it would be obviously unChristian to go around treating 50% of the population that way, and so we have chivalry, a code by which the woman, because she is assumed to be naturally weaker, is treated with a special consideration. And that, in fact, is a very Christian notion: that a person deemed weaker should be the object of particular tenderness or concern.
So, we have two models: one in which sex is ignored and ideas are treated on their own merits, and another in which men are taken to be naturally more authoritative but women are treated especially courteously. Quite frankly, I'll settle for either. The former is entirely familiar to me, because I have for some time worked in a male-dominated world in which it is generally assumed (at least at the seminar table if not in the hiring practices) that a person's arguments are what matter, and their sex or race is no more relevant to a discussion than their blood type. I'm comfortable with this, and I don't feel that I've ever been treated unfairly in an academic setting on the basis of my sex. I have several times been one of two or three women in a group of twenty or thirty philosophers, and this was never a source of special anxiety; I know I will be treated like the rest. If I make a bad argument, others will tear into it and nobody will shush them with the reminder, "Be gentle; she is after all a girl!" At the same time, if I defend a point with particular vigor, nobody smirks and says, "Getting emotional, sister?" I get taken seriously, and I can handle the lumps that come with that.
Here I am fairly obviously taken less seriously than the men, at least by some among our guests. Consider, for example, that Ambrosius, Iacobus and the Dr. Asinorum have all deleted posts in the past, and have never been subjected to a slew of replies suggesting that they are insecure or overwrought with emotion. Even the wife of one of our most regular guests has suggested that really, trying to defend myself against others' attacks is unwise, because it makes it fun for the men to "push buttons." Obviously, this is how people behave towards someone they don't take seriously, and I think it's fairly clear that my being a woman is a very large part of that.
The truth is that Traditionalists balk at the thought of removing considerations of sex from human interaction, even in an atmosphere like this. Okay! I will not protest; I think there are some good reasons for feeling that way. But if you aren't going to envision women as equals, then chivalry becomes essential. Otherwise women will be treated in a mean and degrading way, as they frequently are on this blog. Hence the appeals to chivalry, a code which most men here would claim to support.
Your suggestion that chivalrous treatment must be "earned" shows that you do not understand what it is. Do you suppose that chivalry derives from a social contract? Of course not. It derives from Christian principles of honor and charity, and as with all virtuous behavior, should be practiced whether or not the other people one knows share the same moral code or behave in deserving ways. Even supposing, for the sake of argument, that my speaking or writing in public places is inappropriate, a man who believes in a code of chivalry would still be required to apply it to me. If a well-bred man encounters a woman who is drunk, say, or discoursing loudly on inappropriate subjects, he does not set out to make himself look clever by jeering at her or trying to tempt her into making more of a spectacle of herself. Rather, he turns away, calls her a cab, or attempts to change the subject; his behavior should not be guided by the behavior of one he himself believes to be contemptible.
Naturally, I don't think that I or the other women here are like that, but the point is that, if you *do* believe in a code of chivalry, no amount of depravity on my/our part would excuse the unchivalrous man.
Really, the overarching point is this: it is utterly shameful to behave unkindly towards another person because you believe them to be weaker than yourself.
God bless you, Lucy, and thank you for contributing!
I wrote a long post, but here's something better. Let's say that JSP, Iura Tonantis, etc., literally, really do think that you are a latent feminist and you need to be corrected (at fraternalcorrection@yahoo.com, or whatever)? What if they literally do think that some of the comments on this thread are silly? How do you propose that they translate these concerns into a "chivalrous" act of fraternal (sororal?) correction? What is the ideal? Harsh words sound different coming from friends than from strangers. I'm not sure there is any "polite" way to point out "hey, you're incredibly wrong" especially when you don't know the other person (except as revealed in the string) and there's a very limited time to say it. If the damsel is fine being eaten by the dragon (she's hexed, or something), she'll protest when the knight comes. (Not saying anyone here was actually right or wrong, etc.) These things sound much better coming from friends, relatives, etc. So then it's up to the critic to refer the matter back to the responsible party who's closer to the "damsel" -- i.e. her "knight."
I fully admit that my two points (the ones you note) are in tension. That is my point -- if you want to debate, debate. If you want a polite dialogue that takes into account gender differences, do that. BUT, the latter entails the woman yielding the floor to the male teacher, he being a priest, her husband, or a proxy (in this case, I guess). She should have some special consideration for me as a religious teacher (if I claim expertise in the particular matter) since I'm the man. (See my argument for this.) If she doesn't, then let her throw her better male teacher at me. And, if *I* am the wrong one, then once again let her volunteer her better male authority. But otherwise, what am I left with? Someone I am to nod at and be gentle with, despite her being incalcitrant on something important. No thanks -- I don't come to these websites to increase the number of women with whom I avoid topics of import. I save that for the holidays with my family.
Wow, am I tired. If any of you watch television (and I don't advise it), and watch the Simpsons (if you're already watching TV, you might as well), I feel like Principal Skinner in that episode where he incites a gender war at his school.
I comprehend perfectly. You do not think women should express opinions, except to their fathers or husbands. Ladies should choose their male champions and let them do battle while they look on adoringly. But your main argument seems to be that men can't be expected to behave decently towards women unless they have a special affection for them. I say, they can and should be expected to do this.
Chivalry does *not* require agreeing with everything a lady says. There are polite ways to express dissent. Chivalry does forbid jeering, name-calling, patronizing and descending to personal attacks. If Joe Six Pack, Iura Tonantis, and others really are putting their points in the most courteous way possible, given space limitations, then no, I would agree that chivalry has not been violated. The charge is that they in fact feel much more free to be rude and bullying precisely *because* they are addressing women, whom they perceive to be naturally weaker. I've already offered some reasons to think that this is the case. As I said, the men I encounter in my discipline don't think that women should be given any special deference, but they behave nothing like the men I've encountered on this blog.
In the context of a blog discussion, what women want from men is really no different from what men ought to be affording each other -- general courtesy and respect. That's why the egalitarian ideals of the academic world actually work pretty well if you're just looking to foster good debate. But if a man's sensibilities make it impossible for him to look past sex even in this sort of forum, then he is obliged to check his natural impulse towards dismissiveness with the weapon specifically designed for this purpose -- chivalry.
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Apparently my first post was deleted. But let me try again.
I have rarely encountered such mean-spirited, unchivalrous, petty bile from men towards a woman than what I have read in this blog.
It looks bullying and, yes, misogynistic. Unbelievable. The simple fact is that this woman, Clara, is running intellectual rings around the male bloggers, and the more they are defeated, trounced, and vaporized by reason, scholarship, and lucid prose, the more they resort to vicious smears and innuendoes.
To the men: knock it off. And stop blogging so much. What is the matter with you? Be real men. Quit going down this rabbit hole and spend some time with your families. Or get a job and support your families. Or quit goofing off on your job and better support your families.
I consider myself a traditionalist Catholic. Therefore, I cannot hate, demean, or smear women (people in general, but especially women).
And this will be my last post, because I have to work.
Jacques, your other comment wasn't deleted. I don't think it's a matter of trouncing people - we all know Clara is well equipped to do that on a regular basis - but a matter of right conduct in this somewhat awkward topic. My feeling is that, apart from speaking directly to what the Bishop wrote, this is not a conversation to be had betwixt the genders on the internet. If I were her, I would have deleted everything and stopped comments long ago, but that's my style.
Everyone should read Athanasius Contra Mundum's post "The Death of the Gentleman." He raises a very valid point there. The attitudes of men toward women and women toward men are very intertwined. It is usless at this point to blame either the death of gentlemanly behavior or feminism as the start of the decline in behavior as too much time has past to determine which came first.
The main thing is that we all need to assume an attitude of civility toward each other as ladies and gentlemen. I really appreciate Athanasius comment that Catholic gentlemen should treat all ladies as the image of the Blessed Virgin Mary -- whether we deserve it or not. (It's rather like treating a Novus Ordo priest like a traditional priest, maybe he will begin to gain the sense of who and what he really is.)
So please, let us regain our sense of decorum and gentleness toward each other. I believe that we all understand that families take both parents working diligently together. We all understand that it is best for mothers to be home with the children, barring extenuating circumstances. I sense that I am several years older than most of those who post on this site, and I can say that I would love to hear what all of you think about this subject about 15 years from now . . . after you have homeschooled several children and experienced more of life.
God bless all of you.
Whoops, I coined a new word. For some reason I combined "recalcitrant" and "intransigent" into "incalcitrant."
Iura Tonantis
You, sir, are an ass, and it is I, not Clara, who will be forthwith deleting your coprophagous offerings.
Iura Tonantis says,
So you say dear sir. However, you have made my day with that most beautiful vocabulary word.
Mine, too!
How come your posts stir up so much excitement, Clara? I wish I could do the same with my posts!
Dr. A's love for Clara comes second only to his thesaurus
After 102 comments I'll add my 10c:
- For the girls: Must reading is 'Heart of Compassion; The Vocation of Woman Today' by Gerald Vann, OP. It is by far the best book I've read on womanhood (and I've read a lot).
- For the guys, a joke along the lines of JSP's last comment:
Tommy Lasorda, who'd been with the Dodgers for 56 years and married for 55 years, told this story: "My wife tells me one day, 'I think you love baseball more than me.' I say, 'Well, I guess that's true, but hey, I love you more than football and hockey.'"
Tobias, great posts!
Clara,
"If Joe Six Pack, Iura Tonantis, and others really are putting their points in the most courteous way possible, given space limitations, then no, I would agree that chivalry has not been violated. The charge is that they in fact feel much more free to be rude and bullying precisely *because* they are addressing women, whom they perceive to be naturally weaker. "
Well, I can only speak regarding JSP...I don't think he's rude and bullying BECAUSE of the simple fact of your sex. He's like that with some of the men too (read about anything he writes to johnboy). I think when he's like that with women it really has more to do with what tobias said, "We think that feminine speech patterns, concerns, pet peeves, etc., are silly, trite, or "womanish." " Men think and reason different from women, generally speaking, and that's about all there is to his tyrades.
Mrs. Six Pack,
I don't mean for this to turn into a beat-up-on-Joe-Six-Pack session. It's easy to do, since he beats up on everyone else so gleefully, but this isn't specifically about him. For the record, I completely believe you when you say that his blog persona is quite different from his personality elsewhere, and I don't really bear him any ill will. Being rude to people on the internet is not a good habit, but, at the same time, it probably isn't going to scar anybody's life.
Still, I think your defense of his (and others') behaviour here is unpersuasive. Your husband once hypothesized that if the members of the Cornell Society for a Good Time were to have a discussion using gender-neutral pseudonyms, it would be easy to pick out the woman. I am quite certain that this is not true. (At least, it would not be true for an audience who wasn't already familiar with our views and writing styles; our regulars could probably pick us all out fairly quickly even if we changed our names.) My language may become more obviously feminine when I am writing "friendly" posts to praise someone else, or when I post little feel-good anecdotes from time to time. But in argument I know from long experience that I can easily pass for a man in writing.
One interesting thing about the internet is that you don't have to be John Howard Griffin to get a glimpse of how the other half lives, so to speak. When making brief forays into blogs or other forums in which I am not a "regular" I will often choose gender-neutral names (initials, for example) and if I stay in a discussion for long, I very often find the other bloggers using masculine pronouns to refer to me. In sports-related conversations this is always the natural assumption (I'm a passionate devotee of college football, and in this town it's hard to find fellow enthusiasts anywhere except the internet), and I never correct people who assume that I'm a man; I'm looking to talk football, not to start a sexual revolution, and men are generally more comfortable talking sports with other men. Generally speaking, online sports conversations are one part sports and three parts pointless male posturing, and I certainly don't become crude or profane in such settings, but I will press points with the same vigor that I use here, and nobody has ever accused me of being effeminate, wimpy, emotional or trite (pedantic, yes). If you think that's because people are too polite to say what they really think, you obviously haven't ever visited a forum of this sort.
In debates among conservative religious folks, I am again normally taken for a man if I don't specify one way or the other, and again, I mostly like this, because I do feel that I'm taken a bit more seriously. Nobody accuses me of being "trite and womanish" unless they already know that I'm a woman. I am never chastized for being "emotional" when people think that I am a man. And I've already pointed out that I live and work in a place where I'm expected to talk, argue and generally keep pace with men. So to the people who have hypothesized that my writing attracts an unusual amount of rudeness because it is filled with irksome womanish faults, I say: that's pure fantasy.
You point out that men, as well as women, are sometimes treated rudely here. That's certainly true, but if you examine the people who are badly treated, I think it supports my point. Johnboy and I are obviously the favorite targets, and look! We're also the ones perceived as being the "weakest", he because his grammar and punctuation are a bit below par, and because he has few ideological allies here, and me because I'm the only woman who regularly contributes and addresses difficult questions. My fiance can express the same arguments that I'm making, without exciting the same sort of response. And as I've already pointed out, several other contributors have deleted comments in the past, but only I am accused of being insecure and emotional. I think it adds up in more or less the way I've suggested.
As I've said, beating up on people who are weaker than you is a natural impulse, but an ugly one. If you do it online, it isn't the worst of faults, but it's still unhealthy. Just something to think about.
I seem to be getting agreement from all sides that a female-only post would be a good idea. So I may perhaps do that presently, though perhaps it would be better to wait a few weeks... everyone might be a bit worn out with this topic at the moment. But you are of course welcome to contribute, should I ever get around to starting such a thread.
Breier,
I'm tired of this. I don't really give a damn anymore.
Ha! So glad I got out while the going was good!
From: T Amicus Verus
To: Tobias Petrus
Yes, shame on me for many things. Shame on me for offending Lucy for which I am sincerely sorry. Yet, I accept no shame for what you inferred in your post of 11:47 on 8/30/06. My parody was not on the Church but on certain individuals in the Land of Oz. Let’s call them the Professionals, the Experts, the Periti for lack of more derogatory names.
These types are not confined to a certain society in Kansas for in every traditional chapel there are at least a few. They are with us even here. Note the divine thundering against Clara, not for any intellectual debate but because she dared to belittle the source. Fortunately the plug has been pulled; it may have been the Oz himself.
But the Periti need to be seen for what they are and their power taken away. They assume full authority in the name of Tradition and lord it over the more humble: those looking for concrete solutions for today’s problems. They love to lay heavy burdens on men, “The New Rite is invalid and sinful to attend.” The put quilt trips on women who attend universities or go in search of a good paying job. “Women should not distract men in their more noble pursuits.” And lest we forget: “It was Eve who brought down Adam.” How many women in “Tradition” are made to feel that they are nothing but occasions of sin? The fault falls largely because of the men.
Case in point: I suggested that for women not to be “a distraction to men”—to put it nicely—wear a burka with a sound proof face veil in public. (obviously a spoof but if you still don’t get, don’t worry, it’s not that funny.) At least admit that there could be nothing more modest for a woman to wear. From that, how did your mind jump to what shouldn’t be talked about in polite company? Perhaps that “B” word should be submitted to your Family Friendly Filter.
I won’t belabor my case against the experts but allow me a word about the Professionals. A Professional is one who stands up in front of a crowd—say on a crowded bus, or on a New York subway at rush hour, or better yet on the World Wide Web as just happened recently—and makes a “profession of faith.” (see message 6:36, 8/31/06) “I’m a Traditionalist!” He doesn’t say, “I’m a Catholic,” because he is better than that and not like the rest of us. Having flashed his credentials to a dazed crowd, he basically lets us know that he doesn’t hate women, especially his wife, and he brings home the paycheck—not a bad guy. But then he goes one step beyond the Gospel parable and invites us to stop sinning by “blogging” (another evil “B” word) We are also advised to stop cheating our employers and neglecting our families. Apparently our Frere Jacques has been sleeping this whole time and finally decided to spend his spare moments going through 105 posts. I don’t think I could call him a “blogger” since there are only 6 short paragraphs on one post—his first post being deleted.
Anyway Toby, do me a favor. Let me know when you publish your Summa. Once it’s in book form, I’m sure I’ll appreciate it even more.
Okay . . . you were being sarcastic then in the post about the burka. Well, as I've admitted before, I am not a particularly subtle reader of sarcasm or irony. (When I use it, I almost invariably add an emoticon or a "hah" in parentheses to make sure people get what I mean.) When I publish my Summa, I'll be sure to send you your very own autographed, leatherbound edition -- whether you wish to read it, burn it, or relegate it to the use of the lavatory is fine by me. ;)
"or relegate it to the use of the lavatory is fine by me."
After all, it will bear the initials TP.
One of the reasons my comments above may seem off-base to some of you is the fact that I didn't get a chance to read the deleted posts. So they could have been completely ouf of bounds, people are responding to them, and I am working from insufficient knowledge.
From: Iura Tonantis
To:T Amicus Verus
"Note the divine thundering against Clara, not for any intellectual debate but because she dared to belittle the source. Fortunately the plug has been pulled; it may have been the Oz himself."
What source? Whose source? A person as source? Don't hide behind the same veil as Oz but be a bit more forthcoming lest I should think you are given to duplicity like the others you belittle.
"A slight error eventually grows to vast proportions, according to the Philosopher."
I think that Amicus (whose writing tends to be obscure, I judge) means that Clara belittled Bishop Williamson, the "source" of the claim that women shouldn't go to university. Right?
T. Amicus Verus says:
Well said Tobias Petrus. You're catching on.
And thanks for your previous reply. Let's shake on it.
Iura Tonantis says:
T. Amicus Verus. Thats cheeky.
Clara,
I don't think your writings are "feminine" so much as some of the other female contributors. (i.e. "My heart is saddened...")
I don't think you're weak - you have well thought arguments. I just think you're a little misguided in some areas...I'm not all that either - what I believe and know to be true I many times have a hard time carrying out (like "wives be submissive to your husbands" when I think I'm right).
johnboy's issues - he seems to be a tough character - don't really care about the grammar (neither does JSP) I just think he's seriously misguided regarding NOM and Tridentine (that being the most recent point of contention) and others see it and vehemently stand their ground.
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The grammar thing has my been my personal crusade. Well, I can't maintain correct spelling and coherent sentence structure in all of my own posts, so I obviously can't expect it in others'. That, plus Clara's note, have persuaded me to lay off.
I agree with Mrs. JSP that Clara's posts are quite formidable.
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