Universal Indult Already Signed?
I don't know if this counts as a rumor or as a genuine source . . . but word came to me this afternoon that Fr. Martin Edwards, chaplain of the UK branch of Aid to the Church in Need, in a recent meeting with Cardinal Zen of Hong Kong, received confirmation that the "universal indult" (whatever that will mean) has, in fact, been signed by Pope Benedict XVI. Cardinal Zen had this information from the Pope himself in a private meeting.
by Iosephus @ 10/07/2006 06:01:00 PM
32 comments
St. Louis-Marie de Montfort, ora pro nobis
St. Joseph, ora pro nobis
St. Ambrose of Milan, ora pro nobis
St. Dominic, ora pro nobis
St. Francis (and St. Clare), orate pro nobis
St. Catherine of Siena, ora pro nobis
St. Alphonsus Ligouri, ora pro nobis
St. John Chrysostom, ora pro nobis
32 Comments:
Laus Deo Virginique Matri!
Iosephus
I would gently remind you that there has always been "already signed" documents somewhere in someone's drawer. Apparently in 1985, then 1986, and then sometime in 2001...
It would rock my world, really and truly, if such a document ever saw the light of day.
Genuine shock and real astonishment would be understatements for my sentiments at the time of any such promulgation.
Ricard's latest actions in Bordeaux only presage more, as he put it, "failed hope."
I'm not holding my breath.
We're all going to be skeptical until we see not just the document, but some positive results from it. Still, when I received this from a friend, I had no reason to doubt its truth. That's not much reason for anyone else to believe it, but I thought I'd put it up all the same. Take it or leave it; I think it's true.
Stephen, knowing the sad history of such rumors, we would, I can assure you, be similarly shocked and astonished - though the overriding emotion in this quarter would be exuberance - if such a thing came to pass.
What will the universal indult mean? As I understand it, the document (which I have reason to believe does exist - someone I know has seen it!) will allow every priest of the Latin rite to celebrate according to the 1962 Missal, UNLESS FORBIDDEN TO DO SO IN WRITING BY HIS ORDINARY. It therefore will give the priest basic carte blanche, while allowing the Bishop to feel he is still in charge. Think about it. It is a masterly, Benedictine, formula. Of course, even in this form such a motu proprio will annoy the you-know-what out of many prelates, so let's hope the Pope doesn't chicken out at the last minute. Let's hope, and pray.
Oh, by the way, do you all really think it is SO unlikely that Papa Ratzinger - he of so many published comments in this field, he of camauro, and capello rosso, and Regensburg lecture - would move to liberate the Roman Rite?
Deo Gratias!
Let's hope a universal indult is not set forth in the Church. Leave it up to the discretion of the local Bishop, who has the opportunity to evaluate whether the Old Latin Mass rite would be celebrated in communion with the Holy See, and not with schismatic tendencies.
Saucy, Johnboy!
Yes, of course, Johnboy, because taking advantage of the Pope's specific allowance to do something would constitute a sign of disobedience against said Pope. That's like saying, "I hope that the Supreme Court doesn't overturn Roe vs. Wade and return abortion law to the states, lest some states ban abortion out of spite for the same court that let them do it."
In other words, Johnboy, you display papolatrous, canononico-positivist tendencies all the time. I hope that the universal indult comes out, so that people like you will have their papolatrous, canonico-positivist tendencies squelched. Now to quote Paul Harvey, "Good day!"
Yes, let it to the discretion of the local Bishop who almost always is not in communio with the Pope. That is a very good idea. Our Lady of the Rosary, pray for us.
Wouldn't it be nice if this were true? Who knows what would happen next?
Something tells me, however, that this will not be as big of a deal for most of the Church as many would like to think. Let us take into account that most Roman Catholics, including all of the members of my immediate family, like the New Mass and all that comes with it. (My grandparents have told me that they didn't like to go to Mass when it was in Latin.)
The bottom line: the situation could be likened to a short story that someone like Borges might have written where a long, lost forbidden manuscript has been presented for the viewing of all, but the language has changed so much that no one knows what it means. How Catholics practiced their religion before the Second Vatican Council and how they did it afterwards are almost a world apart in most places. So much has changed that for most people it would be the same thing to have a Mass in Cantonese in every church every Sunday as it would be to have the Mass in Latin. Novus Ordo religion is a religion of comfort; it's safe, transparent and totally understandable, and sorry guys, it is here to stay.... at least until it dies out completely.
Nevertheless, the Pope should be commended for this step, if he indeed took it. If a small group of people is again to learn the traditional language of worship, allowing some freedom for the old rite is very necessary. The crisis, however, is much more profound than any of us can imagine.
Well spoken, Pseudo-iamblichus.
Things have changed since the Council.We will not see throngs of people going to the masses with the 62 missal.The crowds who now attend do so because the number of such masses are limited.Mass in Latin to some is like mass in cantonese.What then,do we make the traditional roman rite a museum piece? Do we disobey Vatican II and never use Latin? The people heve been Haugendized. Its discouraging to me to hear practically popele in their 80's and 90's say they want Eagles' Wings at their funeral (which I have just banned).The stae of affairs as described by pseudo-iamblichus is the reason many priests who would want the tradition just give up.We cannot surrender for the future is ours because of truth and beauty.We must forge ahead by introducing Latin and chant into regular masses at the speed the community will tolerate,and make available a Latin mass with choir for those who wish one.Make the major events of the parish eg.Midnight mass ,as Latin as possible.Offer a course in latin (I did and we had so many people we had to go to an auditorium).The people will accept it if they know that you believe in it.Otherwise they will go on eating McDonalds and never taste the experience of Morton's.
Why do we have to wait until November if the indult was signed in September? Is it because of some great event ? Or feast? Or does Pope Benedict have some great plan of which this is a part?
Sacerdos15 -- with all due respect -- I disagree. If they free the MASS of all ages -- if they free it -- the people will come. The Mass itself has the power and the glory to attract. Why else has it been so diabolically squelched? They have tried to bury it -- but it cannot be. Those who don't care still won't care, and they will come to the convenient Mass. If it is the 1962 Mass -- so much the better! Gaude Gaude!
My grandparents are the same way.
While visiting home several years ago, I went to Mass with them - there were two priests there at the church - a young, serious priest (who I later learned assisted at the once a month Indult mass in the diocese) and a middle-aged, flamboyant, gregarious, "happy" priest. My grandparents thought the young priest was too-standoffish and loved the middle-aged priest: among other things, "he tries to shake EVERYONES hands during the Sign of Peace!!" Oh joy!
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The Novus Ordo Missae is designed to allow the majority of Catholics to live a non-Catholic life and still be able to go to Mass on Sunday (or should I say Saturday afternoon) and not feel any guilt.
Its true purpose it seems was to allow cultural-Catholics, people who wouldn't abandon their Catholic status overnight, to *feel* Catholic while the Church totally retreats from the world and Catholicism dies.
We shouldn't take too much solace in the fact that several dozens of young families (both traditionalists and Neo-Catholics) in each diocese are trying to live virtuous Catholic lives - think of the millions on the road to perdition. The WWII generation and the baby-boomers had the Novus Ordo to help ease their consciences about their abandonment of true Catholicism. Now the newer generations have no real need of the Novus at all. They see no reason to even pretend to be Catholic. This is the reality of the situation.
Stop living in your echo chamber of devout Catholics. The social science is clear: Catholicism as a mainstream religion is nearly dead.
Please spare me the rebuttals that things weren’t as rosy before Vatican II as we’d like to think or that today’s devout Catholics are truer or more “living their faith” than the pre-Vatican II generation who were just going through the motions.
Sacerdos15 wrote:
"Why do we have to wait until November if the indult was signed in September? Is it because of some great event ? Or feast? Or does Pope Benedict have some great plan of which this is a part?"
In your opinion, what would this plan be?
As for myself I believe that the Pope wants to issue the apostolic exhortation first.Realizing that apostolic exhortations do have a profound effect on the life of the church (ag.Catechesi Tradendae,Ex Corde Ecclesiae,Evangalii Nuntiandi.Christifidelis Laici,Pastores Vobis,Familiaris Consortio)he is taking his time.The exhortation will set the standard for the reform of the reform by (as Mediater Dei did with antiquarianism)defining what participatio actuosa is.He hopefully will stress the vertical dimension of liturgy and that it should be shown in what we sing and what our posture is. Then comes the liberalization of the Roman mass in november which (in my opinion)is the only way to achieve a reform of the reform.It becomes the example of mystery and transcedence that he speaks of in the exhortation. I beleive he started all those rumors this past holy week because he wanted to stir up the opposition and then relax them.By doing this and by establishing the Institute of the Good Shepherd the opposition is seeing the future and that Benedict will do as he wants.The opposition is resigned to this happeningas we can see with the reaction of the bishops in France. Once the exhortation is out then he can follow it with implementing documents and the appointment of key bishops who are known for their love of tradtional liturgy,Then he can travel and instruct the people in th liturgy office that the masses must reflect the norms of the exhortation so as to show the world how it is to be implemented.
Nice theory, Sacerdos15 -- we'll see. If you're right, you will be hailed as a prophet. :) (I wish I were in a position where I could start rumors as part of master schemes -- sounds fun.)
Why do we need to have an "indult", meaning a permission, to have the TLM which was never abrogated? Why must we have permission for something which is rightfully ours? The bishops of Am Church will grudgingly and stingily allow priests with the desire to say it, to be able to do so. A "universal Indult" is not what is needed. The freeing of the TLM is what is needed. We'll be waiting until doomsday for that to happen.
To be fair to Johnboy, even if we grant that the TLM was never abrogated, that still presents huge practical problems. I can understand why bishops do not want random priests in their dioceses choosing to say the TLM while the rest say the Novus Ordo. What would this mean in the government of the normal parish? Father X comes in, you have the guitar Mass, Father Y follows him with Gregorian Chant, then back to the guitar Mass when Father Z arrives? Or priests "trying out" the Tridentine Mass on random Sundays, with altar girls and extraordinary Eucharistic ministers? Or the selection of bishops being politicized over which Mass he will say in his cathedral? It seems that this way lies chaos.
But I stress the word "seems." I'm sure the folks in the Vatican, being much more competent and sharp-witted than either I or Johnboy give them credit for, can figure out a good way to coordinate consistency of pastoral policy with freedom for the Traditional Latin Mass.
Sacerdos15,
very, very interesting. I am of the same opinion. Let us pray for the Holy Father, against the wolves. Very good! Mary, Mother of hope, pray for us!
To prevent confusion the decree (according to a source who claims to have written it)will stipulate that the pastor of a parish decides whether the extraordinary rite is used,the assistants cannot publicly celebrate it without his permission.As the pastor decides whether a particular mass is sung or recited so he would determine the missal used.The use of the words 'ordinary' and'extraordinary' probably means 'normative' and whatever similar word would correspond to extraordinary. Thus the normative mass in a parish would be NO and the 62 missal would be extraordinary.It is my understanding that pastors of principal parishes i.e. large parishes with several masses will be urged to have at least one using th 62 missal. The bishop may forbid a particular priest from using the 62 missal but he must put the prohibition in writing .That would prevent priests who think they know the Roman mass (but they do not)from mutilating it.Sounds strange? I know some who fit that category. As regard the "universal indult"-I dont believe the decree will be called that officially.The Apostolic exhortation will state that the 62 missal is a legitimate rite of the church and never was abrogated.The November document will then be an implementation.Induit willl be the popular term but remember Benedict when he was cardinal attacked the suppresion of the traditional missal as being the first time it was done in the history of the church citing the example of Pope St.Pius V.He also could say what JPII said to the monks of Barroux-that allowing the old rite was in keeping with VII's directive that ALL rites of the church were to be preserved. Excuse my rambling but expectant joy has seized me! The reason I beleive the holy week rumors were based on fact was that Fr.DiNoia of the Holy office told his friends that something was in the works about the 62 missal I think Benedict made up his mind then and ordered the decree drawn up and proceeded to squelch the opposition.Remember Cardinal Ricard told the bishops of France that Benedict wanted unity and reconciliation in the church and that he would make a significant gesture about the old mass and that they should accept it.If those french bishops taught the faith as strongly as they opposed the traditional Roman mass france would be teeming with saints.
Thanks again, Father - I remember that from your comment on Rorate-Caeli before the rumour police got to it. Just kidding, New Catholic! ;)
Thank you very much, Father. This expectant joy is with all of us, I believe. This time it seems to be true. Let us pray, and pray, and pray.
This, if true can only be a positive for true restoration of the Catholic faith
This if true can only be a positive for the much broader true restoration of the holy catholic faith
Yes, but did he talk about the old Mass while he was in England?
My grandparents are the same way.
My grandfather stopped attending ANY Mass after the change to the NO. He was heartbroken. I am sure if he had lived to hear of an indult, he would have run to it.
With water being such a mystical substance I thought you chaps might like this
which I've cut and pasted from the Steorn Forum.
Physics Issues: Cornell Discover the Structure of Water
Although they haven't yet realised it.
In the thread Energy Issues: What is LAG? "mo" drew attention to some research work by Cornell in the following post:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=46301&page=4#Item_34
Because it's only short I'm pasting it here in full
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mo Feb 17th 2007
More Barkhausen
http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/sethna/hysteresis/hysteresis.html
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Later in the thread I wrote a post which compared the Barhausen phenomena with the cracking of concrete, pointing out that these were the same phenomena in different hierarchies.
What I stupidly failed to connect with at the time was the following item of information:
"This self-similar behavior is governed by certain universal critical exponents: universal here means that different systems (e.g., theory and experiment) will have the same exponents. For example, the probability of having an avalanche of size s at the critical point varies as s to the power tau. We've been running lots of systems on the Cornell Theory Center supercomputer, in order to extract these critical exponents in 2, 3, 4, and 5 dimensions. Karin Dahmen has been using the renormalization group to predict these exponents as a function of dimension: these theoretical methods converge best near the ``upper critical dimension'', which for our problem is six. After an amazing amount of hard work, we've found great agreement between theory and experiment:"
Now the key phrase here is these theoretical methods converge best near the ``upper critical dimension'', which for our problem is six.
Years ago I discovered the PV^6 = a constant equation of state for water and published it in an international conference on materials.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/
q171/frank260332/p689.jpg
A year or two ago I also asked Professor Chaplin to include the results on his unsurpassed Water website.
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html
Unlike the powers (exponents) I had been getting for clays and cemented materials this power was integral.
I knew this must be significant but I could never work out what that significance was (not surprising in retrospect since I didn't have the use of the Cornell Theory Centre supercomputer. )
Now, thanks to the Cornell research, the answer is obvious. Water is at the equivalent of the point of failure under compression in concrete. If you invert the well known Volume vs Temperature graph it is the same and the stress-strain curve for concrete at the point of maximum stress. The classic 4° maximum density point corresponds to the maximum stress point on the stress strain curve, in other words the strength.
Well that's a turn up for the book! And to think that if it hadn't been for this forum and mo giving that reference to the Cornell work, that connection might have remained hidden for another 3 decades.
Water is by far the most important fluid there is. After all, our own bodies are 70% water. Anything which advances our understanding of water and how it works is absolutely vital in a whole variety of research areas.
Anyone here from Cornell?
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quibus ipse ait dico vobis quia si hii tacuerint lapides clamabunt
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